pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Ok, who all votes with me for Rod as Official Cafe Philospher? Of course I could make convincing arguments for Ron Smith, and Barry Lee and I am sure others if I thought about it.
Art or Craftmanship
- Thread starter Arnaud Van Tilburgh
- Start date
Idaho Flint
Elite Cafe Member
Art is in the eye of the beholder. It is all a frame of mind, we may or may not feel we are artist when someone else will or will not feel that we are artist.
If you feel that you are an artist and what you product is art then it is. Period. There is nothing more that one should need than how they feel about what they are creating.
It is interesting that most great art was not considered great art at the time it was being made. But after the artist, whom felt that they where making art, was no longer around to create the masterpieces.
Mike
If you feel that you are an artist and what you product is art then it is. Period. There is nothing more that one should need than how they feel about what they are creating.
It is interesting that most great art was not considered great art at the time it was being made. But after the artist, whom felt that they where making art, was no longer around to create the masterpieces.
Mike
Marrinan
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Christy hung a curtain across the landscape, the Chiness built a wall the curtain lasted a few days a best the wall has stood for three thousand years-Christy made art-the chiness built a wall-my two cents worth-and lets not forget the elaphant that paints art which brings in over $50000 per painting-Fred
Arnaud insists that he is a craftsman, but I think the word he is searching for is tradesman. Historically, all the smiths (goldsmith, silversmith, blacksmith, etc) as well as horners, scrimshanders, engravers, clockmakers and many others were all trades. You progressed thru the apprentice, journeyman, and master stages. At the master level, you were expected to encompass ALL the elements required to become a master of that trade. However, many trades require cross disciplines from other trades at the master level. Back then, to call yourself anything other than a tradesman would be considered placing yourself above your station. Arnaud remains humble to that description of his work.
If you are a Baby Boomer, consider your father or grandfather. Most likely they were humble men who were realistic about their station in life and took pride in what they did in the "smokestack industry" era. Fast forward to us, the "feel good society." We pad our resumes with superfluous superlatives, accentuate our accomplishments and do whatever we can to place ourselves above those with whom we are competing. We play the game in the corporate and government world, allowing many to rise above the state of their own incompetency. Greed has crept into business in the quest for the almighty dollar and most people are judged by their wealth as a measure of success. The humble man is a rare commodity in today's society.
We are bombarded with infomercials and reality shows which contain advertising that pushes the envelope of the truth to sell products. We become "wordsmiths" to promote our skills in a global, internet society to remain competitive with others of the same ilk. Without this, it is tough to make a living by relying on our local economy. We need to attract a larger market.
In the USA, trades have largely been taken over by the trade unions who provide the framework to learn a trade, but many historic trades have disappeared. Artists on the other hand are largely university trained where they are exposed to art history and the elements of appreciation, composition, working in various media, etc and are then left to develop their own style in whatever media they choose to work. They too, may develop cross disciplines, but somewhere in the middle the artist and the tradesman meet. It is only our predeliction to label everything that determines what that work is called and the tendency today is toward self-promotion and agrandizement. In today's workplace, the educated technician has largely replaced the tradesman.
In spite of all that, I still detect many here who remain humble men and let their work stand on its own merit. They have no need to label themselves. Many of them are probably embarassed by the voluminous praise heaped upon them when they display their work.
If you are a Baby Boomer, consider your father or grandfather. Most likely they were humble men who were realistic about their station in life and took pride in what they did in the "smokestack industry" era. Fast forward to us, the "feel good society." We pad our resumes with superfluous superlatives, accentuate our accomplishments and do whatever we can to place ourselves above those with whom we are competing. We play the game in the corporate and government world, allowing many to rise above the state of their own incompetency. Greed has crept into business in the quest for the almighty dollar and most people are judged by their wealth as a measure of success. The humble man is a rare commodity in today's society.
We are bombarded with infomercials and reality shows which contain advertising that pushes the envelope of the truth to sell products. We become "wordsmiths" to promote our skills in a global, internet society to remain competitive with others of the same ilk. Without this, it is tough to make a living by relying on our local economy. We need to attract a larger market.
In the USA, trades have largely been taken over by the trade unions who provide the framework to learn a trade, but many historic trades have disappeared. Artists on the other hand are largely university trained where they are exposed to art history and the elements of appreciation, composition, working in various media, etc and are then left to develop their own style in whatever media they choose to work. They too, may develop cross disciplines, but somewhere in the middle the artist and the tradesman meet. It is only our predeliction to label everything that determines what that work is called and the tendency today is toward self-promotion and agrandizement. In today's workplace, the educated technician has largely replaced the tradesman.
In spite of all that, I still detect many here who remain humble men and let their work stand on its own merit. They have no need to label themselves. Many of them are probably embarassed by the voluminous praise heaped upon them when they display their work.
James Miller
Member
Is it art
I collect what I call art and it is paintings, I also collect ceramic and glass objects made by those who I call craftspeople as many are female and the word craftsman does not fit well. Some people have called me an artist craftsman but I deny this title as I like to be known as a craftsman goldsmith. I know that Arnoud does not like my work as he feels it is only made for a certain class of customer. Art types are a matter taste, there are many modern art pieces that I fail to see why anyone would call it art. What really winds me up is the art and sculpture pieces that are not even made by the artist who takes the credit. Over here in the UK we have quite a few well known modern artists who make millions by selling their so called art pieces that were actually made by other craftsmen.
I collect what I call art and it is paintings, I also collect ceramic and glass objects made by those who I call craftspeople as many are female and the word craftsman does not fit well. Some people have called me an artist craftsman but I deny this title as I like to be known as a craftsman goldsmith. I know that Arnoud does not like my work as he feels it is only made for a certain class of customer. Art types are a matter taste, there are many modern art pieces that I fail to see why anyone would call it art. What really winds me up is the art and sculpture pieces that are not even made by the artist who takes the credit. Over here in the UK we have quite a few well known modern artists who make millions by selling their so called art pieces that were actually made by other craftsmen.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
James, thank you, I think you share my point of view.
And it is not that I don't like your work, it is the design that does not fascinate me.
And if I may mention some I like it are the revolvers.
But a friend of mine made them also some years ago, and the design was better for my taste, more adventure to look at it.
I also have read the determination of the word "art" both the English and Dutch version, and they are different but they both are saying it has to excite different human senses. And the meaning of the word like it is now, is changed during the Renaissance.
What I understand about Art, is that if an elephant paints and this work is sold as art for 50.000 euro, one has to think about the meaning of the word Art.
And like James mentions, it are not just elephants that make such Art, and there are more of them than members in this Café.
arnaud
And it is not that I don't like your work, it is the design that does not fascinate me.
And if I may mention some I like it are the revolvers.
But a friend of mine made them also some years ago, and the design was better for my taste, more adventure to look at it.
I also have read the determination of the word "art" both the English and Dutch version, and they are different but they both are saying it has to excite different human senses. And the meaning of the word like it is now, is changed during the Renaissance.
What I understand about Art, is that if an elephant paints and this work is sold as art for 50.000 euro, one has to think about the meaning of the word Art.
And like James mentions, it are not just elephants that make such Art, and there are more of them than members in this Café.
arnaud
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I Agree Wholeheartedly!
DKANGER,
Great summary of the current ways of the world.
DKANGER,
Great summary of the current ways of the world.
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Another Definition of Art Versus Craftsman
According to RG Collingwood (Principles of Art) what
distinguishes the artist from the craftsman is that
the craftsman has a precise notion of what s/he is
constructing.
The artist, in contrast, performs his/her creations
to learn what they become.? And in learning what they
become, the artist informs him/herself about something
previously unknown to the artist.
According to RG Collingwood (Principles of Art) what
distinguishes the artist from the craftsman is that
the craftsman has a precise notion of what s/he is
constructing.
The artist, in contrast, performs his/her creations
to learn what they become.? And in learning what they
become, the artist informs him/herself about something
previously unknown to the artist.
Blimey, I am seriously thinking about keeping an elephant in my garden now!
Excellent plan, Arnaud!
PS If any elephant is reading this, please PM me.
PPS I promise that i am not interested in your tusks at all. Though if you were to be a lame painter, that could change. I warned you!!!!!!!
Last edited:
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Yeah, like Damien Hirst's "For The Love Of God" diamond skull! Seems all you need to be an artist is an idea. Craftsmen are needed to put the ideas into tangible objects. The real artists of the past were craftsmen/women as well.
The problem really is one of semantics. Real craftsmen don't want to be put into the same category as someone who knocks up a wonky slab pot at an evening class or someone who threads beads for a hobby. If you look at some of the people responsible for the Arts and Crafts movement at the end of the 19th Century some of the stuff they created was fabulous and some was a bit hokey but is still worth quite a bit of money nowadays. But at least they actually created something!
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
One of the things that really surprises me about some things in this thread is that there seems to be a presumption that art is rubbish with examples and stories of bad art.
Of course some of it is pretentious and bad...............but most of what I have seen in private/public art galleries and museums is very good and something to aspire to. Not all of it may be to my particular taste but it is still worthy of being called art.
And of course there are levels of art. The home hobbyist painter/sculptor is still creating art even though they may not be a Rembrandt or Michelangelo. They are interpreting the world around them through their chosen medium. Not all art is big and expensive either, in fact some of it is very affordable. I brought a print last year from James Elhers that I liked. The price was very reasonable and it hangs on my wall and guests admire it. What makes it interesting is that I know the artist and a bit about how he created the print..............Will it ever be worth a small fortune? I don't know and don't care..........I like it and that is good enough. So to put the only value on art as being money is a nonsense. But if I could afford a Rembrandt, then I would buy one.
We also desperately need to have the investors and collectors that want it to gain value and return them some money. Without that we would all be dead in the water. Who would buy the high end engraving without the serious collector and investor to keep the art of engraving thriving??
And don't forget there is more to art than just the finished product. The artist themselves, their life, technique, medium etc all come into the equation. Quite often an artist will gain recognition because they start a trend that influences other artists even though what they have created is not all that brilliant. So there is a holistic approach to art as well.
Yes, an artist has to talk the talk and walk the walk of an artist. They have to talk their work up, gain patronage, show their work in galleries and catch the eye of potential clients.............but isn't that what engravers have to do as well except instead of galleries it is knife, gun and jewellery shows.
Yes, elephant and chimpanzee paintings can fetch a lot of money but they are the exception, not the rule..........so why concentrate on them. It's no different from looking at a bad piece of engraving and then dismissing all engraving as being bad.
If we merely put engraving into being a trade along with electricians, plumbers and butchers, after all, they are highly skilled at what they do................then what have we got to aspire to? Where's the romance in that?
Cheers
Andrew
Of course some of it is pretentious and bad...............but most of what I have seen in private/public art galleries and museums is very good and something to aspire to. Not all of it may be to my particular taste but it is still worthy of being called art.
And of course there are levels of art. The home hobbyist painter/sculptor is still creating art even though they may not be a Rembrandt or Michelangelo. They are interpreting the world around them through their chosen medium. Not all art is big and expensive either, in fact some of it is very affordable. I brought a print last year from James Elhers that I liked. The price was very reasonable and it hangs on my wall and guests admire it. What makes it interesting is that I know the artist and a bit about how he created the print..............Will it ever be worth a small fortune? I don't know and don't care..........I like it and that is good enough. So to put the only value on art as being money is a nonsense. But if I could afford a Rembrandt, then I would buy one.
We also desperately need to have the investors and collectors that want it to gain value and return them some money. Without that we would all be dead in the water. Who would buy the high end engraving without the serious collector and investor to keep the art of engraving thriving??
And don't forget there is more to art than just the finished product. The artist themselves, their life, technique, medium etc all come into the equation. Quite often an artist will gain recognition because they start a trend that influences other artists even though what they have created is not all that brilliant. So there is a holistic approach to art as well.
Yes, an artist has to talk the talk and walk the walk of an artist. They have to talk their work up, gain patronage, show their work in galleries and catch the eye of potential clients.............but isn't that what engravers have to do as well except instead of galleries it is knife, gun and jewellery shows.
Yes, elephant and chimpanzee paintings can fetch a lot of money but they are the exception, not the rule..........so why concentrate on them. It's no different from looking at a bad piece of engraving and then dismissing all engraving as being bad.
If we merely put engraving into being a trade along with electricians, plumbers and butchers, after all, they are highly skilled at what they do................then what have we got to aspire to? Where's the romance in that?
Cheers
Andrew
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I say art for arts sake is the purest form of art. If you want to make a living at it that's a different matter. The joy of creating is often in making your own decisions, choosing your own direction for individual development and discovery. Whether you make money at it has nothing to do with being an artist. A true artist in my opinion will always have that urge to create. An added incentive of course is finding an audience to support your work as it is.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Andrew, I agree with you that "not all art is bad, etc, etc," but where a lot of modern art/conceptual art falls down (imho) is it lacks the skills of craftsmanship.
I have this debate every time I see my stepson. He is very much in and part the fine art world and understands it from an insider's perspective. I have to argue my point from the point of view of someone who's not part of the 'club' as that is what it really is when it comes down to it. It's very much an us v them world. Conceptual art really only demands an idea and works around this on an intellectual plane. A wildlife artist is almost looked down on by the 'art establishment'. Indeed, a couple of years ago David Shepherd, one of the greatest modern painters of African wildlife was told by this 'establishment' that he was merely an illustrator! Is it no wonder this debate fires passions from all angles?
I have this debate every time I see my stepson. He is very much in and part the fine art world and understands it from an insider's perspective. I have to argue my point from the point of view of someone who's not part of the 'club' as that is what it really is when it comes down to it. It's very much an us v them world. Conceptual art really only demands an idea and works around this on an intellectual plane. A wildlife artist is almost looked down on by the 'art establishment'. Indeed, a couple of years ago David Shepherd, one of the greatest modern painters of African wildlife was told by this 'establishment' that he was merely an illustrator! Is it no wonder this debate fires passions from all angles?
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Maybe join the club, conceptualize an engraved gun, get a one legged blind albino elephant to engrave it...............and make a fortune 
FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hell
I'm still trying to figure out what came first............the chicken or the egg.
You know the best thing about this thread is i have heard this all before as an art student and as an art teacher. You are all right and you are all wrong..........darned if i know the answer either. Or maybe there is just no real answer is there?
Part of our problen is as creative people.we are lousey business people thus we hire agebts and galleries to sell our work. Doing their job for us they promote us any which way they can .thus the word ART and ARTISTS are born to elevate the value of what they are selling. Remember "junk bought .antiques sold"???????
Personally I prefer to think of myself as an artist. I try to put a bit of myself into each piece that i do. Artisans or Craftsmen are extreemly talented individuals who create but perhaps as more of a utilitarian nature which rarely reaches the soul capturing "art" level. This is not to belittle any individual but it just reaffirms that there are many levels of creativity and excellence in what we do. We all know that there are what we call "production engravers". These people are very very talented but when they do production work they are not creating individualistic art.. In time maybe collectors might look at their work as art and collect it as such. Remember Norman Rockwell and Remington were considered "illustrators" in their time.
Now are we all confused???????????
I'm still trying to figure out what came first............the chicken or the egg.
You know the best thing about this thread is i have heard this all before as an art student and as an art teacher. You are all right and you are all wrong..........darned if i know the answer either. Or maybe there is just no real answer is there?
Part of our problen is as creative people.we are lousey business people thus we hire agebts and galleries to sell our work. Doing their job for us they promote us any which way they can .thus the word ART and ARTISTS are born to elevate the value of what they are selling. Remember "junk bought .antiques sold"???????
Personally I prefer to think of myself as an artist. I try to put a bit of myself into each piece that i do. Artisans or Craftsmen are extreemly talented individuals who create but perhaps as more of a utilitarian nature which rarely reaches the soul capturing "art" level. This is not to belittle any individual but it just reaffirms that there are many levels of creativity and excellence in what we do. We all know that there are what we call "production engravers". These people are very very talented but when they do production work they are not creating individualistic art.. In time maybe collectors might look at their work as art and collect it as such. Remember Norman Rockwell and Remington were considered "illustrators" in their time.
Now are we all confused???????????
FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
PS and artist are terrible spellers..........
Doc Mark
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Boy, I love this type of discussion! Especially "You are all right and you are all wrong." These are unwinable arguments, but who cares?
Marcus, man you hit the nail on the head with your observation on the lack of craftsmanship in much of what passes for art today. Several years ago, I was making a pretty decent living as a (gasp), "commercial artist". During that period, I took some graduate level courses in Etching and Printmaking. I learned a lot and really enjoyed the hell out of these courses. I was at least 15 years older than the other art students in the University. I was appalled at the totally non-existent drawing skills of these Art Majors. Even more upsetting, was their common disdain for anyone purporting to be interested in "representational art". They saw no need to understand even the basics of perspective, modeling with light, proportions etc. All they wanted to do was "Create". Now this would be fine if we were only interested in self-aggrandizement. However, if you want others to view your "creation" and appreciate it to any degree, you must have something to build on. The finest of the early "modern" artists all had solid drawing skills. As someone in this Forum once said about scroll design, "You need to understand the Rules of scroll design before you can break them." The same pertains to all "Fine Art", know the rules and then break them to fit your vision.
Oh yes, I never could understand when or why the term "Illustrator" became such a slur! Like Marty said look at Rockwell, Remington, Mucha, Maxfield Parrish, Toulouse-Lautrec and many more, all Illustrators and (dare I say it) Artists!
Anyway, it's a fun discussion which will go on forever.
Mark
Marcus, man you hit the nail on the head with your observation on the lack of craftsmanship in much of what passes for art today. Several years ago, I was making a pretty decent living as a (gasp), "commercial artist". During that period, I took some graduate level courses in Etching and Printmaking. I learned a lot and really enjoyed the hell out of these courses. I was at least 15 years older than the other art students in the University. I was appalled at the totally non-existent drawing skills of these Art Majors. Even more upsetting, was their common disdain for anyone purporting to be interested in "representational art". They saw no need to understand even the basics of perspective, modeling with light, proportions etc. All they wanted to do was "Create". Now this would be fine if we were only interested in self-aggrandizement. However, if you want others to view your "creation" and appreciate it to any degree, you must have something to build on. The finest of the early "modern" artists all had solid drawing skills. As someone in this Forum once said about scroll design, "You need to understand the Rules of scroll design before you can break them." The same pertains to all "Fine Art", know the rules and then break them to fit your vision.
Oh yes, I never could understand when or why the term "Illustrator" became such a slur! Like Marty said look at Rockwell, Remington, Mucha, Maxfield Parrish, Toulouse-Lautrec and many more, all Illustrators and (dare I say it) Artists!
Anyway, it's a fun discussion which will go on forever.
Mark
I do not believe that one can be an artist without being a craftsman. Perhaps that is why I often find myself disagreeing with those who try to tell me what art is. Every painter is not an artist, the same holds true no matter the craft. At a certain point art surpasses craftmanship. Cost/price does not work as a true gauge of this. To me an object of art is one that has a value beyond cost that remains; something that improves the craft. Likewise this is why many "artists" fail to create "art".
FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Very good............I like that
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I might as well make this an even 100 posts on this thread.
Among hand engravers the subject of art and craftsmanship are often discussed as here. This discussion usually leads to the state of fine art as it is known in the 20th - 21st centuries with the prodominance of abstract expressionalism and the fine art establishment's utter distain for representational art.
I had often pondered how this state of affairs came about and developed some firm opinions. One day I was researching some particular artists on the internet and came across a fabulous web site called Art Renewal Center. One page of the ARC site lays out, in convincing detail, how all of this came about and confirmed my own notions. If you are really interested in this subject I recommend you visit the following link to a lengthy but well thought out and detailed explanation of this subject.
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/ArtScam/artscam.php
The ARC and their adherents are working mightly to reverse 100 years of the fine art establishment making a mockery of art by selling "the emperor's new clothes."
CRB
Among hand engravers the subject of art and craftsmanship are often discussed as here. This discussion usually leads to the state of fine art as it is known in the 20th - 21st centuries with the prodominance of abstract expressionalism and the fine art establishment's utter distain for representational art.
I had often pondered how this state of affairs came about and developed some firm opinions. One day I was researching some particular artists on the internet and came across a fabulous web site called Art Renewal Center. One page of the ARC site lays out, in convincing detail, how all of this came about and confirmed my own notions. If you are really interested in this subject I recommend you visit the following link to a lengthy but well thought out and detailed explanation of this subject.
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/ArtScam/artscam.php
The ARC and their adherents are working mightly to reverse 100 years of the fine art establishment making a mockery of art by selling "the emperor's new clothes."
CRB
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