Dulltool
Elite Cafe Member
Are you kidding? that's the best sock I've ever seen. 
Art or Craftmanship
- Thread starter Arnaud Van Tilburgh
- Start date
jerrywh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
If the engraving was the same size it would bring as much as any art piece in my opinion. Try and buy a boutet high art gun.
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I think an engraver sells himself short if he doesn't aspire to being an artist.
Not all engravers are artists but many are. Art may have a different meaning as Arnaud mentions but that doesn't mean an engraver can't or shouldn't consider himself an artist. An artist should have an aesthetic sense. This is either developed or to a gifted person may come naturally. Most people would agree that if you are a trained artist that gives you a headstart with engraving and will probably reflect in the artistic quality and originality of the work you can produce.
Not all engravers are artists but many are. Art may have a different meaning as Arnaud mentions but that doesn't mean an engraver can't or shouldn't consider himself an artist. An artist should have an aesthetic sense. This is either developed or to a gifted person may come naturally. Most people would agree that if you are a trained artist that gives you a headstart with engraving and will probably reflect in the artistic quality and originality of the work you can produce.
truehand
Member
I would say that art is simply a higher form of communication and that craftsmanship is the thing that makes the art/communication even more powerful.
Money isn't anything more than a tool for trading things of value and since one of the things we hold most valuable is communication, it follows that the more powerful, the more valuable.
I would add that sometimes an object of art 'communicates' a powerfully negative emotion which still qualifies it as art, conversely, if an object does not 'communicate' anything at all, it simply is not art. As pointed out, whether something communicates anything at all can only be determined by the 'beholder'
waxing philosophical,
dave
Money isn't anything more than a tool for trading things of value and since one of the things we hold most valuable is communication, it follows that the more powerful, the more valuable.
I would add that sometimes an object of art 'communicates' a powerfully negative emotion which still qualifies it as art, conversely, if an object does not 'communicate' anything at all, it simply is not art. As pointed out, whether something communicates anything at all can only be determined by the 'beholder'
waxing philosophical,
dave
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Dave okay for me if that is your definition of Art and than I can agree with you.
But what if Art is just business?
arnaud
But what if Art is just business?
arnaud
engravertom
Member
if art is just business?
Then it is not art, according to my definition of the word. Someone quoted " a rose by any other name..."
We can play with words, but beyond the labels, a thing is what it is.
Someone who buys "art" to posses a status symbol is not really buying "art" as I understand it. The are trying to buy "prestige", if you will.
Arnaud, do you believe that aesthetics can be absolute, in any sense? Do you believe in any absolute truth? I ask that not to suggest anything, but just to try and understand where you are coming from.
Take care,
Tom
Then it is not art, according to my definition of the word. Someone quoted " a rose by any other name..."
We can play with words, but beyond the labels, a thing is what it is.
Someone who buys "art" to posses a status symbol is not really buying "art" as I understand it. The are trying to buy "prestige", if you will.
Arnaud, do you believe that aesthetics can be absolute, in any sense? Do you believe in any absolute truth? I ask that not to suggest anything, but just to try and understand where you are coming from.
Take care,
Tom
truehand
Member
Arnaud, I think when it comes to 'just business' it can pay big time for a jeweler or engraver to sell his/herself as an artist if you're good enough to be able to pull it off. examples like Pandora jewelry or say John Hardy come to mind, among others. Nothing wrong with raking in gobs of cashola fair and square! :yes
I'm not sure I agree on the physical size having anything to do with the monetary value though. What about that guy in england who does micro sculptures. His miniature 'art' sells for no small fortune.
www.willard-wigan.com
I'm not sure I agree on the physical size having anything to do with the monetary value though. What about that guy in england who does micro sculptures. His miniature 'art' sells for no small fortune.
www.willard-wigan.com
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hand engraving, art or craftsmanship?
Hand engraving, art or craftsmanship? This is an age-old question and one that I addressed briefly in the introduction to American Engravers. The word art is very broad in its use as explained by the many who have responded to Arnaud’s beginning post.
Academia breaks down art into two categories: Fine art (or beaux art in French) and applied art. Engraving that is more than simple border and edge decoration falls into the category of applied art. The following is the definition of applied art from Wikipedia:
“Applied art is the application of design and aesthetics to objects of function and everyday use. Whereas fine arts serve as intellectual stimulation to the viewer or academic sensibilities, the applied arts incorporate design and creative ideals to objects of utility, such as a cup, magazine or decorative park bench.†And we can, by extension say, guns, knives, jewelry, spurs, or motorcycles, etc.
At first blush, we engravers may tend to dismiss Arnaud’s concept that size plays a role in whether an object is art or craft but he makes some valid points in support of his argument if you limit your definition to the manner in which contemporary fine art is marketed today.
On the opposite side, one cannot deny the fact that there are many engraved guns, knives, swords, chalices, and jewelry on display in art museums around the world. These same art museums usually do not display similar undecorated arms within their walls. A prominent example of this is the display of arms and armor in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. The most treasured piece within the arms and armor section is the “Sultan of Turkey†Colt dragoon revolver engraved by Gustave Young. This gun is so valuable and treasured that it rates its own display module within the museum. More than 20 years ago it was appraised at over $3,000,000.
I recently attended an exhibit of Art Nouveau jewelry at the Cincinnati Art Museum. René Jules Lalique, Louis Comfort Tiffany and other artists filled this exhibition with exquisite, though small, works. It is clear that the Cincinnati Art Museum considers these pieces to be “art†regardless of their size.
Many contemporary hand engravers are artists in their own right and their works can be seen occasionally within this forum. Many other hand engravers are craftsmen (or craftswomen if there is such a word). As I see it, the artists are those who can conceptualize a design and bring it fruition and are able to do this in various media such as painting, pen and ink, sculpture or carving, as well as hand engraving. Engravers (as contrasted with hand engravers) who engrave their own concepts for printing with copper plate or wood block (such as Rembrandt and Durer) have always been considered artists. A contemporary example would be James Ehlers.
As an example, I will contrast my brother Carl and myself. Carl has been a lifelong artist who has conceived and rendered designs in painting, sculpture, drawing, engraving, and even in tattoos. He does not need to look at pictures of the things within his designs to conceive them or put them down on paper or steel. With gun engraving he usually designs directly on the gun. I consider him an artist. On the other hand most of my decorative endeavors have been limited to hand engraving and a little woodcarving. If I want to depict a dog, I look at several pictures of the type of dog I want and then use mechanical means to transfer the image to the work piece. While I have taught myself to design various types of scrollwork within any shaped space, I usually stick with my interpretation of traditional styles. I consider myself a craftsman. Carl, on the other hand is unlimited in his imagination of decorative designs. Sometimes I like his design and sometimes not so much but they are always unique.
In conclusion I think we can agree that decorative hand engraving is a form of applied art which under certain circumstances may be considered art in a general sense as found in art museums. And that contemporary art dealers and art galleries rarely consider hand engraved items to be fine are within their realm of influence.
I think we can also agree that some hand engravers are artists who are at the same time craftsmen while others may be a master craftsman but not an artist as understood in the world of fine art.
Thanks again to Arnaud for starting this thread. It is discussions like this one that takes this forum beyond a simple “how to†web site. And thanks to anyone who has read all of this because you must have more than a shallow interest in engraving to get this far.
Roger
Hand engraving, art or craftsmanship? This is an age-old question and one that I addressed briefly in the introduction to American Engravers. The word art is very broad in its use as explained by the many who have responded to Arnaud’s beginning post.
Academia breaks down art into two categories: Fine art (or beaux art in French) and applied art. Engraving that is more than simple border and edge decoration falls into the category of applied art. The following is the definition of applied art from Wikipedia:
“Applied art is the application of design and aesthetics to objects of function and everyday use. Whereas fine arts serve as intellectual stimulation to the viewer or academic sensibilities, the applied arts incorporate design and creative ideals to objects of utility, such as a cup, magazine or decorative park bench.†And we can, by extension say, guns, knives, jewelry, spurs, or motorcycles, etc.
At first blush, we engravers may tend to dismiss Arnaud’s concept that size plays a role in whether an object is art or craft but he makes some valid points in support of his argument if you limit your definition to the manner in which contemporary fine art is marketed today.
On the opposite side, one cannot deny the fact that there are many engraved guns, knives, swords, chalices, and jewelry on display in art museums around the world. These same art museums usually do not display similar undecorated arms within their walls. A prominent example of this is the display of arms and armor in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. The most treasured piece within the arms and armor section is the “Sultan of Turkey†Colt dragoon revolver engraved by Gustave Young. This gun is so valuable and treasured that it rates its own display module within the museum. More than 20 years ago it was appraised at over $3,000,000.
I recently attended an exhibit of Art Nouveau jewelry at the Cincinnati Art Museum. René Jules Lalique, Louis Comfort Tiffany and other artists filled this exhibition with exquisite, though small, works. It is clear that the Cincinnati Art Museum considers these pieces to be “art†regardless of their size.
Many contemporary hand engravers are artists in their own right and their works can be seen occasionally within this forum. Many other hand engravers are craftsmen (or craftswomen if there is such a word). As I see it, the artists are those who can conceptualize a design and bring it fruition and are able to do this in various media such as painting, pen and ink, sculpture or carving, as well as hand engraving. Engravers (as contrasted with hand engravers) who engrave their own concepts for printing with copper plate or wood block (such as Rembrandt and Durer) have always been considered artists. A contemporary example would be James Ehlers.
As an example, I will contrast my brother Carl and myself. Carl has been a lifelong artist who has conceived and rendered designs in painting, sculpture, drawing, engraving, and even in tattoos. He does not need to look at pictures of the things within his designs to conceive them or put them down on paper or steel. With gun engraving he usually designs directly on the gun. I consider him an artist. On the other hand most of my decorative endeavors have been limited to hand engraving and a little woodcarving. If I want to depict a dog, I look at several pictures of the type of dog I want and then use mechanical means to transfer the image to the work piece. While I have taught myself to design various types of scrollwork within any shaped space, I usually stick with my interpretation of traditional styles. I consider myself a craftsman. Carl, on the other hand is unlimited in his imagination of decorative designs. Sometimes I like his design and sometimes not so much but they are always unique.
In conclusion I think we can agree that decorative hand engraving is a form of applied art which under certain circumstances may be considered art in a general sense as found in art museums. And that contemporary art dealers and art galleries rarely consider hand engraved items to be fine are within their realm of influence.
I think we can also agree that some hand engravers are artists who are at the same time craftsmen while others may be a master craftsman but not an artist as understood in the world of fine art.
Thanks again to Arnaud for starting this thread. It is discussions like this one that takes this forum beyond a simple “how to†web site. And thanks to anyone who has read all of this because you must have more than a shallow interest in engraving to get this far.
Roger
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
... it may not be an age old question, but one in which the answer was lost and forgotten and is now being re-discussed and re-discovered.
Read chapter 1 of this book, written exactly 100 years ago .... The terms "fine art", "art" and "process" are used explicitly throughout both texts. No mention of the word "craft" however the artists mentioned all executed their original designs in metal.
The Golden Age of Engraving (1910)
.... and while I'm digging through old books online ...
Engraving : its origin, processes, and history (1886)
You're probably still ignoring me for disagreeing with you in the other discussion
.... oh well, the answers can always found in historical record.Have fun reading ... they do support your points very well.
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Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Chris,
Thanks for the references. I am familiar with them though I haven't read them cover to cover.
Your reference to The Golden Age of Engraving supports my point. Let me interject a definition here distinguishing a hand engraver from an engraver or hand engraving from engraving:
In general usage,†hand engraving†usually refers to engraved objects de Art, jewelry, items of utility such as guns or knives, or musical instruments as contrasted with “engraving†which is understood to indicate engraved printing plates or wood blocks for the reproduction of art or banknotes.
Thus no mention of craft in the The Golden Age of Engraving because it is about engravers and engraving rather than hand engravers. A fine distinction I will admit but one that needs to be understood.
Anyway, I could never ignore you. I read your every post with great anticipation. Besides, I am used to people disagreeing with me:big grin:
Thanks for the references. I am familiar with them though I haven't read them cover to cover.
Your reference to The Golden Age of Engraving supports my point. Let me interject a definition here distinguishing a hand engraver from an engraver or hand engraving from engraving:
In general usage,†hand engraving†usually refers to engraved objects de Art, jewelry, items of utility such as guns or knives, or musical instruments as contrasted with “engraving†which is understood to indicate engraved printing plates or wood blocks for the reproduction of art or banknotes.
Thus no mention of craft in the The Golden Age of Engraving because it is about engravers and engraving rather than hand engravers. A fine distinction I will admit but one that needs to be understood.
Anyway, I could never ignore you. I read your every post with great anticipation. Besides, I am used to people disagreeing with me:big grin:
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
This is probably one of the most succinct and best definitions of the differences between applied and fine art I've ever read. Thanks Roger for that and your extremely eloquent reply. I wish I had that way with words.
I'm really not convinced that size matters as regards art. I can see where your coming from Arnaud and I agree with a lot of what you say but as with a lot of things, there are rules which are bent or broken. I'm thinking you've cut out a whole section of 'art' with your statement; what about miniaturists? They used to paint the most beautiful portraits in miniature. You can't surely think they were just mere illustrators or draughtsmen?
My two penny worth; I'm more with the 'intent and intellect' argument than the size side of things. There are days of repetitive scrollwork where I wouldn't dream of calling myself an artist, but then along comes a commission for a gold animal head and I let myself go into it mind and body and I feel the artist in me rise to a different level. To an 'artist' though, I'm probably just a craftsman. But I'm proud to say I'm a craftsman; nothing wrong with that title in my view!!!:thumbs up:
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Thank you all for your input on this tread, and there are a lot of them.
I can’t answer them all because to me it seems not everyone has read the whole tread and the different point of views.
Roger thank you for reading it all and telling us your point of view.
It is a good thing you mentioned art and fine art.
And like it was already said, the different point of views are mostly because we all have different meanings about the word “Artâ€
The point I tried to make is that “fine art†needs craftsmanship and a lot of Art that is sold as Art does not require craftsmanship. Sure there are exceptions.
A lot of Art that is made today and traded as Art for big money, simply because rich people want to invest in it, most jewellery and engravings are not sold for that purpose.
In jewellery, the price of the piece must have a balance in value between material and work. Otherwise one can’t sell it. In Art, even when it is also fine Art, this does not matter.
arnaud
I can’t answer them all because to me it seems not everyone has read the whole tread and the different point of views.
Roger thank you for reading it all and telling us your point of view.
It is a good thing you mentioned art and fine art.
And like it was already said, the different point of views are mostly because we all have different meanings about the word “Artâ€
The point I tried to make is that “fine art†needs craftsmanship and a lot of Art that is sold as Art does not require craftsmanship. Sure there are exceptions.
A lot of Art that is made today and traded as Art for big money, simply because rich people want to invest in it, most jewellery and engravings are not sold for that purpose.
In jewellery, the price of the piece must have a balance in value between material and work. Otherwise one can’t sell it. In Art, even when it is also fine Art, this does not matter.
arnaud
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Marcus, sure you are a craftsman and an artist and so many other designers, jewellers and engravers here in the Café.
During the 70 ties we had many discussions about Art, in particular Pop Art.
We were convinced that having a creative mind and the will to create was enough to be an artist.
In those days I made transparent plastic shoes, just because my grandmother was knitting socks for us from all different colours wool. I thought it was a pity no one could see them. And that is just one of mine, and most of my friends shared this spirit and where convinced it was art.
But as the word ART is also used for items I don't want to be associated with, I prefer one calls me a craftsman.
arnaud
During the 70 ties we had many discussions about Art, in particular Pop Art.
We were convinced that having a creative mind and the will to create was enough to be an artist.
In those days I made transparent plastic shoes, just because my grandmother was knitting socks for us from all different colours wool. I thought it was a pity no one could see them. And that is just one of mine, and most of my friends shared this spirit and where convinced it was art.
But as the word ART is also used for items I don't want to be associated with, I prefer one calls me a craftsman.
arnaud
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engravertom
Member
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Read this thread and thought to myself :Art is what happens when the craftsman is even surprised:big grin::big grin: at the outcome!!!!
mdengraver
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
And the Correct Answer is Silverchip!!!!!!!!!!
I like your philosophy Silverchip. I think it summarizes the whole discussion in a nutshell.
I like your philosophy Silverchip. I think it summarizes the whole discussion in a nutshell.
engravertom
Member
Right on, Dave.
n general usage,” hand engraving” usually refers to engraved objects de Art, jewelry, items of utility such as guns or knives, or musical instruments as contrasted with “engraving” which is understood to indicate engraved printing plates or wood blocks for the reproduction of art or banknotes.
A very nice distinction and useful. Thanks Roger.
Kevin P.
A very nice distinction and useful. Thanks Roger.
Kevin P.
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