Art or Craftmanship

[Kevin P.]

"In jewellery, the price of the piece must have a balance in value between material and work. Otherwise one can’t sell it. In Art, even when it is also fine Art, this does not matter." -Arnaud

Arnaud, I'm not sure how you would define that 'balance' between material and work. But I disagree and you limit yourself by taking that position. The work is everything. What one puts into the material is the standard by which things are valued.
You can elevate your work to 'Art' through your design and technical skills.
Kevin P.

 

[jerrywh]

In my opinion , art comes from the heart and soul. The craftsmanship is a combination of desire and manual dexterity. If I didn't consider myself an artist I wouldn't be an engraver. It wouldn't be any fun. I took art for about 13 years. There are engravers in the guild who have masters degrees in art. However I do agree that not all engravers are artists. Neither are painters or sculptors.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Kevin, sure that "balance" is needed.
Try to work on 2 gram of silver for one week, put a zirkonia stone in it.
But if you make a setting of 2 gram in platinum, holding a 3 carat diamond, you may be able to work on it for one week and get paid.

I agree with you that it could if one sells it directly to a customer, but sure not in wholesale.

And for instance, my buck knife can't be sold as it was almost 24 ours to engrave one side, both sides is 48 ours. So with my our loan the engraving will cost 2880 euro.
That on a knife that cost only 35 dollar?

Same with the HH engraved guns, they cost 50.000 euro, engraving on it for 3 weeks than may cost 15.000 euro.
But try that on a Taiwan gun that cost 1000 euro and you will find out.

And if someone works for 2 years glueing some thousands matches together producing a perfect copy of the Eiffel tour, do you think he ever can sell it for 2 years our loan?

Last year I made some oval wire settings for earrings in Titanium. 5 setting /piece.
They where high end made and never done before in Titanium. It was wholesale I worked for. Our loan to make them was 3500 euro.
I got paid for it but they are not in the collection, just because of the balance material / work. Perhaps if they would have put five 3 carat stones in each, but in this case it was Saphire, and not even a good quality.
So you don't have to agree with me, but I have experienced it several times.

arnaud

 

[Haraga.com]

Have you ever heard of someone who paints on canvas with brush and oils called a craftsman?

I haven't... he is an ARTIST

Wouldn't he be called a painter?

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Have you ever heard of someone who paints on canvas with brush and oils called a craftsman?

I haven't... he is an ARTIST whether good or bad. The engravers canvas is metal and the graver is his brush.

Stringing beads is a craft.

I don't care how you call them, but in Stand Construction he is called a Craftsman.
You also may call the old painters who painted Frescos as artists, but they where just Craftsman until Centuries later they called it Art.
Also the painters in older days that could paint panellings and ornaments that looked like marble or wood in houses, train stations, museums royal palaces etc, they where called Craftsman.
And I also remember that when I was young every week, some painters painted a big movie scene on a canvas to put above the entrance of the cinema.
Perhaps they where artists at home, but this work was just crafmanship to me.

And the copperplate engravers for printing, it was just because there was no other technique to produce a proper illustration whether for book illustrations or other print-work, They did not have to make the design themselves, just cutting.
Sure some of these later where sold as art, even illustrations in books are cut out to be put in a cadre and sold as Art. But it was just craftsmanship what these copper engravers did, some 50 of those people in one "factory printing house".

You probably also remember the painters who painted on the glass of window shops, just to anounce something, or have the name of the shop owner on it.
They where just craftsman.

And even the Greek and Romans decorated their bathhouses and whatever with paintings, just because they did not have wallpaper.
And as far as I know wallpaper is not sold as Art neighter.

arnaud

 

[Jim Sackett]

I believe it was Celene who was a watch and clock maker, he was also an artist and engraver. So what was Celene?

I began my career as a pantograph machine operator and etcher, engraving steel plates for the business and social stationary field. Worked my way up to hand engraver doing picture work and logos and trade marks. I also did watch repair, Studied at the Chicago School of Watch Making.

Moved on to jewelery engraving and about 10 years of signe painting and vinyl cutting. So what am I?

Jim Sackett

 

[KatherinePlumer]

Maybe, with the definitions being somewhat nebulous, it comes down to what a person considers him or herself to be. If Arnaud doesn't want to be labeled as an "artist" that's okay with me. I gladly accept and embrace that label, and I think a lot of other people on here would as well. I call myself an artist, not to be snooty but because, well, it's what I do. Heck it even says so on my tax return. I have known several people who create wonderfully beautiful things who don't want to be called artists. It's hard for me to understand that, I mean it as a compliment when I call someone an artist, but to each their own.

The public reaction to "artist" can be pretty entertaining. Upon meeting someone new who asks what I do, I've seen more than a few raised eyebrows and fleeting looks of panic as people imagine all sorts of totally incomprehensible art pieces. No no, I assure them, I am a realist, I do western art and illustration (oh yeah and this little scrimshaw thing too). They breathe a sigh of relief, ah, just a normal artist to whom they can relate.

Anyway, this has been a fascinating thread, and a topic on which there will never be 100% agreement (and it comes up in all facets of the art world, what is art and what is not).

Going back under my rock now...

-Katherine

 

[Roger Bleile]

Katherine,

Whatever the media, you are an artist in my book. Like many engravers, you use the skills of a craft to bring your artistry to fruition.

Roger

 

[Willem Parel]

Anyway, this has been a fascinating thread, and a topic on which there will never be 100% agreement (and it comes up in all facets of the art world, what is art and what is not).
-Katherine

I think this discussion is allready there for ages and will always continue, thats the nice thing about Art and all relatet things.
Willem

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

The above pictures in my opinion are a joke and give "art" a bad name.
Anyone could do that.

No, sure this no joke

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Katherine, if you consider yourself as an artist, sure you are.
I’m an artist as well, an consider myself as a good one. But I don’t make ART.

thanks for you point of view, you have an open mind.

Arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I know I could break some legs with this tread, and it happened.

For me the definition about art is not what one can read on Wikipedia.
The definition of “fine art” is more precisely like Roger pointed on.

Besides some of you who can agree some with my point of view “what is art and what is craftsmanship”, I have the feeling after reading this tread once again, from start to end, that only me produces craftwork.
All you others make Art, or at least in their opinion engraving is Art.

So be it, if I’m the only one who prefers to produce craftwork.

And I have no troubles when one jokes in another tread “this is art” or “as you are an artist..”
But I have the feeling I’m misunderstood.

And those who don’t understand, they should think by themselves about the definition “ART” , as it is not what is in the book.
If one considers where the word “ART” is used, you must make the conclusion that is more abused that properly used.


Pointing on exceptions does not make this tread more clearly.
Exceptions for every rule, just like me.

Arnaud, AkA: the artist who produces craft work.


BTW in dutch: Kunst of Vakmanschap (perhaps those have a different meaning than my translation)

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud, AkA: the artist who produces craft work.

I don't think you are misunderstood.................I think that people just don't necessarily agree with everything you are saying. Some of what you say I agree with and other things I don't.

Like most things in life there is a very big grey area around any subject and not all things are black and white.

To define oneself so definitively can also create self imposed boundaries that can end up enslaving you and your thinking and suppress the creative spirit.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Mario Sarto]

Hello Arnaud, i think this could be the right place to answer your questions:

Why are you pointing on "BTW To me this is art!" are you that sure your definition of the word "ART" is right one? or are you just joking?

I read, what you wrote about art and craftsmanship. Literally "craftsmanship" means in German craft and art.
The watch rotor, engraved by Andrew, is art to me. It is art, because there are different circumstances come together: the rotor itself is a modern technical component of the watch, the mystical world of the Māori follows very old given directions. The rotor has to move around, if not, "time stood still". The design (the engraved signs) Andrew gave the rotor are telling something - what they tell, i can't say, because they are foreign to me. So it is not easy to understand, i have to think about it. There is something going on in my head. I have to wait for an explanation. But i am thinking about it. So this is different to other engravings.

I do not demand to know exactly what art is or not. But i don't agree, if you say, it is a matter of size. I don't agree if you say art or craftsmanship - because it could be both - to me.

I hope i found the right words to make you understand.
Mario

 

[jfava]

Here is an artist who is world renowned, displayed in galleries, catalogues, and museums....

... and his work is a little smaller then 30cm.............



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB2gxIDeUMs&feature=related

 

[gail.m]

Arnaud,
Your thread reminds me of a quote attributed to a famous artist of your country, Andre Lassen.

"we are artists for 2% of the time it takes to
do a piece, we had better be craftsmen the other 98%."

His thought just about sums it up for me, but I have enjoyed reading other people's viewpoints on the subject. This has been a great thread.
As an aside, my grandfather was a machinist, but he also built the house he and my grandmother lived and raised their family in. There were a lot of details on and in that house that were very 'artfully' done that were not neccessary to its structural soundness, but if you would have called him an artist he would have laughed at you. That house is still being lived in today and is 118 yrs old.
gail.m

 

[BarCLeather]

Very interesting thread! I am new to engraving but a seasoned "leather crafter." After reading this thread I dare to call myself a "leather artist" ) I think that it has more to do with how you build your name in your industry. There are men who build beautiful saddles and sell them for $37,000. They are members of the Traditional Cowboy Arts Association. These artists also sell engraved spurs for more than I could ever see spending...but they are BEAUTIFUL and I personally consider them art. I would not purchase a painting by an abstract "artist" because I personally don't see it to be pleasing to the eye and to be perfectly controversial....I don't see it to be art. My kids can make abstract art!!

Great discussion! I'll vote that it is in the eye of the beholder. I have the heart of an artist....throughout my lifetime I've spent thousands of hours sketching, painting, designing, writing poetry, carving leather and soon, engraving. In my opinion you decide if you are an artist or not. There are many people in every trade who simply DO.... and those who LOVE and CREATE. Those seem to be the dividing factors to me.

 

[Kevin P.]

Jason, that's a trick, not art.
Kevin P.

 

[KatherinePlumer]

I’m an artist as well, an consider myself as a good one. But I don’t make ART.

Okay, I have to chime in one more time because this is where you lose me with your classification. I don't understand this, but it's your preference so I respect that and certainly have no intention to argue it with you. In my book, an artist creates art.

If I ever tell you that I think you've created a wonderful piece of art, please don't be offended by that!

Everyone has a different ideal, I think it's just one of those things that is too subjective to define. There is absolutely a lot of what I would consider bad art out there (don't get me started, trust me I can really rant about art shows and galleries!) but if it's art to someone, who are the rest of us to argue? People who love abstract/modern/minimalist/etc aren't likely to be thrilled with my stuff. That's okay.

It's probably about as futile as trying to define music. One person's awful racket is another's "music to the ears". :banana:

-Katherine

 

[rod]

Arnaud,

Thank you for lighting the fuse on this well attended post!

Art is as thorny a subject as that other three letter word...god. There is no general agreement on what it means, yet everyone is free to offer their view.

Try this on for size:

There is no such person as an artist, there are only moments when 'art' is up at bat, so to speak. I would invite you to consider that the word art could be used to describe the moment, and it can be a long moment, when we as individuals are impacted by the work or behavior of another which in some way expands our sense of what it is to be a human being. That is, you or I walk away from the experience with a richer, deeper understanding of who we are, not necessarily with a deeper experience of who the "artist" is. It has no particular form, and could indeed be the style and grace with which your morning coffee is served to you. When an "artist" is not producing the above experience, she/he is simply another human being. So we cannot rest upon our laurels unless we are expanding and deepening the lives of our fellow humans. Jewelry making, engraving, etc., are perfectly good areas to deliver on this, yet almost any activity is an opportunity to deliver the goods, if done with a good heart. It must always be inflecting in the direction of a new transformational experience to the beholder.

No?

Rod