Art or Craftmanship

[leschowe]

Hi Arnaud,
This is a great thread.
Could I suggest to you that while great engraving certainly requires great craftsmanship that it also requires an significant artistic element on order to be beautiful and "great".
I have seen some engraving which is incredibly beautiful. I have also seen quite a bit of "modern art" lately which does not strike me as as even attractive let alone beautiful. I have also been to quite a few local "artist" shows (where there are real artists) where "artists" are showing and selling their "art" and, I have to tell you, there is NO comparison to much the engraving art that I see displayed on this forum and website.
Maybe "art", like "beauty", is in the eye of the beholder.

Les Schowe

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Andrew probably know, that the native New Zealanders made very nice designs, but I don't think they called it Art.

Oh yes, the Maori called it art alright in the Maori sense of the word at the time (pre- European). Whakairo (carving) was considered to be of the highest art and the artisans, who were mainly cheifs, were highly sought after and prized............The carving would then the become a Taonga (treasure) to the owner or tribe.

They were not just nice designs. Within the carving would be the history and stories of the tribe that were highly significant to their way of life. Histories that would gop back to the Gods, creation and the tribes waka (canoe)

From the moment that the European arrived they recognised the art of the maori and their carvings became highly sought after

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Les, as far as I can understand your meaning of the word "Art" beauty and art are the same.
But I can make and sell fine jewellery but not in an Art Gallery. Sure I can call it art, but if my pieces where Art, they could be in the art catalogue, but I think there are no engraving neither jewellery that is in an art catalogue, unless they where made by an artist who became his title beeing an artist by something else tan engraving or jewellery making .

arnaud

So if the meaning art refers to the word artist, I agree with you,

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Yes Andrew, I know that story, but I think as you already said, we all have a different meaning about Art.

In my opinion: there is Art that shows also craftsmanship, and there is Art that does not reflect any skills of craftsmanship.
Although the last one could be more valuable because it has some traders value.

I think we all agree and share the same point of view, but we have different names for it.

And my point is, if Art that has no beauty and does not need any skills is named Art, than I prefer my work is not called the same, I would prefer to call it Craftsmanship.

 

[engravertom]

Hello Arnaud,

Interesting discussion!

I agree about craftsmanship, I would rather do something with a lot of that involved, whatever it is called.

However, you seem to be defining "art" based on an objects size, how much it sells for, and whether an "art" gallery will agree to display and sell it.

I think Faberge made many things smaller than 30cm? His stuff would be art, I think.

maybe you need to find different "art" galleries!

perhaps an example from music. If I have a band, and we play precise and exactingly correct covers of classic rock songs, that would be "craftsmanship". If we write our own songs, then that is art. It may not be good art, but i consider the creative aspect to make something art, at least when it includes creativity and originality from a design standpoint.

There is a word that fits engravers who do creative and excellent work very well. That word is "Artisan".

Take care,

Tom

 

[Andrew Biggs]

if Art that has no beauty and does not need any skills is named Art, than I prefer my work is not called the same, I would prefer to call it Craftsmanship.

That is making the assumption that all art is some sort of pretentious rubbish ......and of course some of it is. But only some.
It is also assuming that all craftsmanship is quality.............which it isn't. Some craftsmanship (craftshership??) is also pretentious rubbish.

I personally think that most people know the difference and their wallets do the talking. Without the symmetry between artist and collector/trader we would be indeed living in a very poorer world.

I agree with you. Not all engraving is art, just the same that not all paintings are art and not all sculpture is art. But on the other hand...........some of it is.

The problem arises when we try to apply generalizations to broad subjects.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[leschowe]

Hi Arnaud,
So, can I sum by saying that your definition of "art" is that it is something that is included in someones art "catalog" or someones "art gallery"? Interesting. I wonder who the someone is who determines the definition of art by including it in their catalog or gallery????

For what it is worth, I am a retired Electrical Engineer, so this whole question of "what art is" is a new question for me and one that I have been pondering for a while. I will say that some of my Western Bright Cut jewelry has been jurried into some local art galleries - does that mean that I am now artist?

Les Schowe

 

[jwfalk]

I was sitting in my shop this past summer with friend of mine who is an art teacher. We were discussing this very subject, and he shared this quote with me, I would like to share it with you, I don't know where it came from but I liked it a lot.

A Laborer works with his hands
A Craftsman works with his hands and mind
A Artist works with his hands mind and heart



Jerry

 

[Dulltool]

Have you ever heard of someone who paints on canvas with brush and oils called a craftsman?

I haven't... he is an ARTIST whether good or bad. The engravers canvas is metal and the graver is his brush.

Stringing beads is a craft.

 

[Dulltool]

Very well said Jerry.... I believe your friend to be right on the money.

 

[Kevin P.]

Arnaud, I would say from what I've seen of your work that you are an artisan.
The term 'artist is an honorific; it's not a term one should apply to oneself.
If someone calls you an 'artist' that's very flattering ; and I would say should be accepted with a 'thank you.
But if you start to call yourself an 'artist' you're in trouble.
The best we can do, is do our work with integrity and with the best we can muster at the moment.
In most native cultures there is no word 'artist.

Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

One last thought: An artist is what you are; not what you make.
Kevin P.

 

[leschowe]

Very well put Kevin, I agree.

Les Schowe

 

[Sandy]

Isn't art defined by the person that is looking at the work? doesn't craftsmanship come first and then the title of artist after the craft is mastered?

Arnaud having looked at the work you have posted here I would say you are worthy of the title artist. Just one mans humble opinon.


Sandy

 

[vilts]

Some idas about art from Tarkovsky, a great filmmaker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V27XlEDLdtE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aedXnLpKBCw

 

[McAhron]

"art is merely the application of imagination"

 

[McAhron]

"to create is to make art"

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Art is the design, craftsmanship is the making.
Thats how is see it.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

It seems this can be discussed forever, in my opinion simply because we have different meanings about the word “ARTâ€

I agree that art is produced by an artist. But the point I’m trying to make is that objects that are sold being Art, have a bonus Art value.
Who decides what is Art and what is not, this is done by Art criticisers and Art Galleries.
Still it is lucrative for a lot of people to invest in Art, just like shares.

Sure the HH that are engraved by Phil have a great value, if he would engrave the same on a Taiwan gun, it would be possible he can’t sell it.
If he also would make oil paintings on canvas the way he does the bulino scenes, and he could become famous with that, his signed works would be traded as Art for much more money than his engravings.

If I make a golden sculpture, the size of 5cm high, it is a golden pendant, however, if I do the same in bronze in the size 100 cm, it is a sculpture. And if I have an own style and my work is well judged by Art criticisers and Art Collectors, it becomes Art and it will be traded as Art.

Artists like Andy Warhol and Roy Lichtenstein, they made “cartoons on a bigger size, and it became Art, not the regular strip cartoons.

I show you some tools on a big size that are put together, no dought that if he would have done that with tools real size, it would have been rubbish.

Also the one sock of Roy Lichtenstein, if I engrave something like that on a Zippo, it never will be sold as Art.

And we also could discuss about the work of the Belgium painter Rubens, he had a “factory†producing paintings especially for churches, he did not even make all these paintings only signed them. No doubt his work is sold as Art now these days, but you could say he was just an craftsman producing wall papers. And in a way that is what he made. Some ordered some particular scenes on a canvas, sure it was his style, but not the scene.
And before photography was invented, one would like his portrait on the wall, and it had to be painted. Was this meant as Art? In my opinion it was not. Some of these became Art later and it was done by lets name it “the Art lobby†for their own profit.

Sure there are some exceptions like Fabergé, Salvatore Dali also made some jewellery.

To mention a recent Belgium artist, Jan Fabre. Just because also Jan Hoet (Art criticiser) said: “Jan Fabre is an Artist†he glued some thousand beetles on the sealing of the Royal Palace as the Belgium Royals also invests in Art. But he did not even collect all the beetles by himself neither did he glue them on the sealing by himself. It was just his idea and he sold it as Art.

But I don’t care if some calls it art, but the least one can say about it is that it does not need much skills to produce this kind of art.

arnaud

 

[Gemsetterchris]

The above pictures in my opinion are a joke and give "art" a bad name.
Anyone could do that.