Another design for my pocket knife.

Andrew Biggs

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Hi John

No……..don’t butt out. You have a far more discerning eye than I do and you always have something valuable to say and you know a lot more than I ever will…..besides, you still have to keep me on the straight and narrow :)

Arnaud…………the cutting!!!

When you started this I was insistent that you get scroll and leaves etc touching the borders…………not close………but actually touching. And here is the reason why.

What you do at the beginning starts having an effect on everything else. If you scribe or transfer your design with certain faults then they can get carried through to the very finished product. As you gain more experience you can start rectifying these faults as you go………but as a beginner it’s very difficult to do that. So you must be exact with some of your work and understand what the fault is so that you also know how to rectify it and what to look for. It is part of the finesse of engraving.

When you engrave you have to develop an understanding about line thickness

Photo 1: Scribed lines/Transfers. You’ll notice that the lines at A does not touch the border. B does not touch the other scroll……………..C touches the line. Now watch what happens further down the engraving process.

Photo 2: Main Cuts. When you cut something and are going to remove the background you cut on the outside of the scribed line/transfer because essentially that line becomes part of the background. If you don’t do that your design will be “thinner†than you originally intended it to be.

Figure A & B shows the lines now touch…………but it is only the outside of the lines………..so it’s not to bad after all………but keep watching that area as you move through the photos.

Figure C & D the lines merge into one another so there is only one line thickness where they join. The arrows indicate that from the yellow mark I cut in both directions where the lines converge.

Photo 3: Background removal: Now you can start seeing the differences more clearly. Figures A & B a gap now starts appearing and the border line (A) and joining scrolls (B) are now separated from each other. Figures C & D are still touching one another.

Photo 4: Background texture/stipple. Everything is now enhanced as the background is darkened and that gap between A and B is more noticeable.

Photo 5: Finished: Has been blackened and now you can see that areas A & B no longer look connected to the border or the other scroll. However areas C & D are still connected and there is no gap, only the thickness of the line.

So as you can see from the photos one thing affects the next. That is why you must be careful about getting your lines to touch borders and each other. I was using a 90 degree graver for this exercise……..if you were using a 120 degree graver the results would be even more noticeable.

I hope this helps with your cutting and understanding of the process.

I’ll add the usual disclaimer that this is my way of thinking and others may, and will, think differently. It’s just something else to throw in the mix

Cheers
Andrew
 

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Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Thank you Andrew, I now understand about touching borders, scrolls and the thickness of lines. I already knew from a tip and tricks from Sam about cutting to the lines instead of on the lines.
You illustrated this very clear and this is a good tutorial as well.

Also Ron explains this in his books, that the black (background) dominates the white (foreground) and therefore you should cut the foreground a bit bigger. This is done by cuting TO THE LINE on the outside I suppose, like you explained it so well. :)

And as this design has fragile leafs and stems, it is most important they have the wide like the design.

So in my next designs I will use that information knowing why.

arnaud

I did the test with the white and black point as far as I can remember me.
Looking at them the white point looks bigger than the black one. And to me that is the oposite of what I was expecting
 

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Kevin P.

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Andrew, no disclaimer necessary. That was a very lucid explanation and a great tutorial.
Arnaud, I'm right with you, I hope you don't mind. Your experience is a great learning experience for me.
Thanks Andrew.
Kevin P.
 

Kevin P.

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Arnaud that's a very nice design from one of use cheering you on from the sidelines.
The contributions from Andrew, John B. and Ron are most impressive. I look at what you're doing which looks great to me and then these guys are able to take it farther.
What a place!
When you finish it; it will need a place of honor.
Kevin P.
 

Peter E

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I would also like to thank Andrew and John for their contributions and Arnaud for all his work.

I just experienced the EXACT situation Andrew just depicted in cutting a knife bolster.

I had realized when backround removal is to be done there are considerations to be made about the foreground, but I hadn't determined how to correctly handle them.

Thanks,
Peter
 

John B.

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Well done, Andrew.
You are so good with pictures to make your explanation easy to understand and I'm sure this rang a bell for many people.
We Cafe members are lucky to have both you and Tira as moderators on this great site.
Sam and Abigail have really created a great learning and sharing resource.
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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I’m totally convinced by Andrew to use the pencil for drawing.
That although I’m pretty good with the computer.
Besides making the first steps to engrave an design, I also learned a lot about my laser printer, bakery parchment, damar varnish, fixative and so on.

The last weeks I have draw a lot with the pencil, and although I’m using a pencil for more than 30 years, I now know that for really fine design you need a hard pencil. So now I’m using a H2 but I will buy also a H3 and H4.
I have a H6, but that is to hard.
The final pencil design was the best I could draw, but for transfer and cutting it is not good enough.

When one has enough engraver experience, I think a pencil design is enough to cut it. Using the Photoshop “Treshold Toolâ€￾ makes the pencil design black so it can be printed really good.
But as I don’t have that much experience yet, I really need thin lines to cut.

And as Andrew pointed on "the lines on lines" in his clear tutorial, and I had to solve some problems with the design, it was time to use my Wacom Tablet and Adobe Illustrator.
This is what came out, and if you put the original pencil design on this one, you will see how many corrections I made, most of the time just an pencil line.
The lines I used in Illustrator are 0,20 mm. I can change them with one mouse click.

I will make a tutorial on that sometime if you are interested, if I could show you, you would agree with it.

If there is still some refining to be made, tell me. Only when it is good I will first draw the shading and than cut it.

arnaud




 

Andrew Biggs

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Hi Arnaud

One of the things that is hard to do is critique work in such a way that doesn't stifle or crush artistic & creative skill. We all see things differently and our eyes are attracted to different things and we also find different things attractive. Also we have to take into account what you, the artist, is trying to achieve. A lot of it comes down to personal taste and some of it comes down to good design fundamentals.

One of the difficulties as a beginner is trying to learn the basic rules/guidelines of good design but at the same time add your own personal artistic touches to it. After all, that is what engraving is all about.

There also comes a time when you just have to go ahead and cut it because you can keep going on forever trying to draw the perfect design which doesn't exist. Take everything you learn from this project and apply it to the next one and you will be well on your way to becoming an excellent engraver.

So what I have drawn for you is for some thought only. We are now getting into the realms of subjectivity. You may, or may not, want to make these alterations. What I'm showing you is areas that you may have difficulty with when it comes to the shading. Probably the easiest way to see if it will work or not, is to get the pencil out and draw some quick shading lines in these areas. Then you can make a judgment call before you start cutting.....................it comes back to what I've said before, one thing has an influence on another.

The first picture is your original.

The second picture I have marked some lines in red: These lines are separating your scroll backbone from the leaves creating distinct boundaries in your design. There's nothing wrong with that........ but, when you come to shade your leaves this effect will be amplified a lot more and will influence your shading and the final look of the engraving................It may give you some unexpected end results.

In the third picture I have rubbed these red lines out. As you can see it has opened up your design quite a bit.

In the fourth picture I've added in blue an alternative way (one of many) to deal with these areas so the design can still remain open but add a bit more of a sophisticated look to the final engraving. It also provides an opportunity for more shading options with your scroll/leaf work.

However.............this is where that fine line of personal artistic merit and taste comes in and I don't want to stifle your ideas or creative energies. It is purely a judgment call on your part and all I'm doing is giving you something more to think about.

Cheers
Andrew
 

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Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Andrew, very clear once again, your illustrations speaks a thousand words.
About most of the lines that you marked red, I knew I had to ask that, as I know where to start drawing a leaf coming out of the stem, (the bottom of the leaf) but I was not sure where to stop the line where the leaf goes in the stem. I know it is approximately half the wide of the stem, but I don't know how far this line continues .
So I did it to far as your illustration shows that

The other red lines I coloured red in my vector, I thought they gave more depth to the design when shading, as this way the end of the scrolls come more to the foreground, so I'm not sure why I should not?

But I will try both with the pencil and it then probably becomes clear.

And thanks once again for all your support :)

arnaud


 
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Andrew Biggs

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Hi Arnaud

Yes, try both with the pencil and see what you prefer and then make your decision from there. That way you will start developing a very clear picture in your mind about what the finished engraving will look like and how it will develop...........that will also give you a better feel for how you will cut the design. The pencil is a wonderful tool and probabley the most powerful thing you have in your tool box!!

After a while a lot of this will become second nature and habit so you won't have to think so hard about it.

To see just how far you have come..............go back to the very beginning of the thread and have a look at your very first drawings. :)

My turn for bed now!!

Cheers
Andrew
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Thanks Andrew, have a nice sleep.
Yesterday evening I have reread this whole tread, and indeed it is remarkable how I started.
hip hip for the pencil. :big grin:

arnaud
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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I'm only making my first steps on design and engraving. I could have been struggling with design and cutting like the master engravers have done when they started, long before the Internet was born.

About the Internet, I know quite a bit, I have 5 children and when Internet was born, we where there.
I have been active on some "forums" but never experienced a attitude like in "the engraver's Cafe".
I have reread this tread several times, and when I compare my first design with my latest, a world of difference.
Sure I worked hard to improve my skills, the reason is that when I want something, I go for it as a maniac.
But I never could have come this far without the engraver's Cafe and the feedback of Andrew.

I have read his interview, so I know some more of him and how he came that far. He is a great teacher to me and I can't thank him enough.
And sure, If I can, I will help others as I was helped by all of you and in particular Andrew, as fare as my own experience aloud it.

This "final" (perhaps) design including shading, I did with my old pencil HB. Good tool to do the shading.
And I want also advice every beginner that want to engrave, that he also start with the pencil. If you can't draw it, you can't engrave it.

I'm sure this design that started as an practice on my pocketknife, results that I have a real good design, that if I'm able to engrave it, wakes that my pocketknife is no longer a pocketknife.

After this I will start another design, as I'm sure that everything I learned is in my head. So I think I have a good start now.

This design I could improve it, as I see some leafs that would look better an other way, but I have to quite with this design and go up to the next.

Here is the first and the latest design, arnaud





 

airamp

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Arnuad,

Thank you and Andrew and every one else that did this great learning thread.

Arnuad your progress is fantastic... andrew all the help is great.

Amazing learning experence and great tips all the way.

I for one learned quite a bit from seeing your progress and the end product is just top notch.

Keep up the great work, Hope I will be able to draw something as good as your first design but your progress looks like you have been drawing for years!!!

AirAmp
 
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Andrew Biggs

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Hi Arnaud

No worries..............glad to be of help :)

You've come up with a beautiful and well balanced design that's very pleasing to the eye and will enhance the knife. The pencil shading looks great.

Keep drawing with the pencil. Draw anything and everything and draw all the time. Draw anything that pops into your head and don't be afraif to experiment. That way your designs will become even more refined, sophisticated and complex................... plus you will start developing your own distinctive style.

So now it's onto the next phase which is the cutting. And that will open up a whole new adventure for you.

Cheers
Andrew
 

John B.

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Arnaud, Great work with the pencil and paper.
You've come a long way and I realize you can change a couple of things in the actual cutting.
BUT...... if you're still open to some more but ?????.

I would again like to point out that the two little outside leaf and bud elements on the upper left and middle left come off the backbone in the wrong way.
I realize you can construe that they are coming off the border line.
But then they do not match anything else anywhere on the design.
And the one at the upper left creates a " camel hump " look to the scroll below it and takes away from it's flow by leading the eye up the border.
The one in the middle left make that end of the design look flat and does not ballance with the negative space (black) on the right and left ends of the knife.
I also realize that you might be getting a little sick of all this nit-picking but it's seldom that we get this much time to study a design before the deed is done.
While I'm at it you might as well get really sick of me.
The fold over shading on the final leaf in the center scroll needs to be cut with more refinement than you show it in the drawing.
So does the fold over shading of the large leaf at the outside left bottom of this same scroll.

OK, now I'll shut up! You've been very patient.
It's time for you to cut it however you wish.
 
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fegarex

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Mr. John...
You've probably taught more people than all of us combined on this forum over the years..
KEEP TALKING!!
:)
Rex
 

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