Another design for my pocket knife.

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Andrew, and of course I want to do it myself, but I appreciate your help very much.
Indeed the holes are a problem to me, I have tried to ignore them but that does not work.
Integrate them all is also a problem, but I can use some in the design.
And as before, I now see my design different than when I was posting it.
As you say, cutting is one thing, design is the most important, just like making jewellery.

And I want it all. both design and nice engraving. :yes

So up to the next try. , and if it takes to much of your time, just say so.

arno

 

[Andrew Biggs]

No worries Arnaud.

A lot of people have been incredibley generous to me with their time and patience (and still are) so all I'm doing is passing it on ....................just as you will one day.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I have been drawing several thumbs yet, but none of them remains.
So I started over again reading Ron's book. And there are things that become more clear now. But probably it will not be the last time to start al over reading this book.
I'm now just focused on the backbone of the design I try to make, respecting rhythm and flow.

Don't know when I will have one that remains "OK" for more than one our.

arnaud

 

[Chapi]

Arnaud, reading this thread is like deja vue. I have a Kershaw Onion that I had planed to engrave, and I went through about a hundred sketches of scrolls until I just said to heck with it and freehanded the design on with a pencil on the china white. After all that, when it came down to cutting, the steel was so hard that I gave up after slipping about ten times within the first 2 centimeters. It was good practice for scroll design and now I know enough to turn down these knives if any come to me for engraving. Good luck,
-Chapi

 

[Kevin P.]

I have a question about your process. Since you use Photoshop do you ever do the outline say of this knife and then use layers to try out your designs.
I'm still working on my Photoshop skills; but isn't it possible to design your scrolls on one layer and then move that layer over the outline of your knife while still keeping the knife visible?
I don' even know if this makes sense.
Kevin P.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Kevin

The answer is yes........you can do exactley as you say.

However................

I wouldn't recommend it unless you already know what you are doing. Pictures are one thing to manipulate on the computer ......but scroll is another. All you will be doing is improving your computer skills and not your engraving or designing skills.

Accurate outlines of objects to be engraved, some types of photo/picture manipulation and transferring are all made easier on the computer and can be fairly basic. (Or a nightmare depending on your point of view)

Learn to draw your scroll work with pencil and paper. By drawing scroll with pencil you are learning to improve your line skills and a host of other sensorary skills that you need to acquire.......... and this is ultimatley what you will be taking to the actual engraving.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Kevin, for the first designs /sketches I use calque paper like Ron advices in his book.
You can draw on it, gum, and draw again for a 100 times.
I use a 0,3mm pencil H2 that can draw soft and dark.
But if I have a finished design, I trace it over in Adobe Illustrator, not Photoshop
Illustrator is vector based design instead of Photoshop that uses pixels.
In Illustrator you also have the ability to use layers, reverse scale and draw lines that are so thin you hardly can see them unless using a microscope.

So to me, working on the calque paper works faster than on the computer, but to make the final design ready for transfer I use Illustrator to print it on bakery parchment with a laser printer.

Also to draw the thumbs real size on the calque, I first print a A4 paper full with the contour of the knife and border I want to make the design for. Than I use the gum and the shape and border stays on the calque.

And I know about the Kershaw that is probably to hard to engrave, but it is a good challenge to make a design for it, even when I won't engrave the knife.

I will try the cutting on the inside of the knife to see how hard it is.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

After reading again in Ron’s book, it was the equal space between all the scrolls, that had my attention. I made some other designs and when I went to bed I felt a sleep still making designs.
The n° 1 I did this morning after drawing it while falling a sleep. The idea is that I want the stem start at the back and point to the blade of the knife. So I used a screw to start with.


I also post some other sketches to show some of my other ideas, but I think n°1 is the most balanced. Perhaps the central scroll is a bit to big, I could make two instead of one and do an overlapping.

But first I have to show you and have some feedback to know if ‘m right.

arnaud

n°1: This could work in my opinion, but perhaps it is better to have two overlapping scroll instead of the biggest central scroll?

n°2: these are not pointing to the blade of the knife

n°3: could be interesting, but there is something wrong with the direction of the scrolls I think

n°4

 

[Haraga.com]

"I wouldn't recommend it unless you already know what you are doing. Pictures are one thing to manipulate on the computer ......but scroll is another. All you will be doing is improving your computer skills and not your engraving or designing skills.

Accurate outlines of objects to be engraved, some types of photo/picture manipulation and transferring are all made easier on the computer and can be fairly basic. (Or a nightmare depending on your point of view)

Learn to draw your scroll work with pencil and paper. By drawing scroll with pencil you are learning to improve your line skills and a host of other sensory skills that you need to acquire.......... and this is ultimately what you will be taking to the actual engraving".


I agree with you Andrew. I want to add that it also takes new skills to draw on the actual piece you want to engrave when it is sitting in your block. I like your designs Arnaud.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Haraga, As I already said I'm drawing with pencil and paper as you can see obove.
The shape and borderline of this knife I already made using Illustrator, so I can print it a thousand times to draw the scrolls on.
And as you can see, these border line is extremely fine and perfect to use for transfer.

So once I have a pencil drawing that is OK, I will trace it on the computer using vector tools
So, only to make the transfer ready for transfer I use a computer.

arnaud

 

[Haraga.com]

Great Arnaud. Keep going. I look fwd. to the many knives that you are about to cut with your final design.

 

[Tira]

Arnaud, I like the #1 design the best of the 4 you posted. It keeps the eye moving from the back of the knife forward and is not confusing. Your design skills are improving rapidly which is the profit of a lot of hard work.

As for the design to computer part, I do what you are also doing. I scan and make and outline that is accurate then print out many copies and hand draw until I get the design I want. Sometimes the design includes elements of many of the designs on the same paper, but it's one scroll from here and a leave from there, etc. Once I finally have it drawn in one place I scan it in and vector it so I may keep it in a library and use it again. It is also excellent for transfers and I can use different elements from different designs and combine them easily.

Keep up the good work.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank You Tira, only n°1 design is worth considering to go on with.
The others I just show as how I made some progress.

Also thanks for telling me you also use the vector tools, as I thought being the only one.

And hard work? it is not really "hard work", just fun

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

To prevent some confusing, this is the last design I suppose it is worth working it out.
But of course I'm curious about Andrew's opinion.

arnaud

 

[Ron Smith]

Arnaud,

The large scroll in the center is not much of a problem and will melt into the rest of the design as long as you keep your leaf mass and volume fairly consistent even on the smaller spirals. It is sort of a center piece. You could break up it's (center scroll) mass by having leaves extend over the spiral spine line slightly if you know what I mean. It will look quite different once you get the leaves and background spacing in.

The other designs would work too, and would be succesful with the way you applied the leafs.

No. 2 intrigues me. And it has a lot of potential, but no.1 seems more balanced to me.

Ron S

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Arnaud,

The large scroll in the center is not much of a problem and will melt into the rest of the design as long as you keep your leaf mass and volume fairly consistent even on the smaller spirals. It is sort of a center piece. You could break up it's (center scroll) mass by having leaves extend over the spiral spine line slightly if you know what I mean.

Ron S

Thank you Ron for your support, indeed I understand having leaves extend over the spiral, it is in your book
But only reading your books don't work, I have to practice it, just as you write in the books.
Also than, it is good to have someone around who keeps an eye on the progress.
And sure it is still hard at the stage I'm now, things must become more evident.
Sure, practising is the magic word, and I like it.

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

Much better ..........a very nice balanced design that ustilises the shape of the knife and screw holes!!!

But...............I know, there's always a but

Keep your backbone lines touching the borders. They have to run into the borders because when you transfer (if you use the computer to do this) there will be a sizable gap when you start the cutting and you will wonder how that got there.

The far left, top scroll............try and manipulate it into that curve on the knife. It may mean tweaking a couple of things.

The scroll origin on the far right.........have a wee play in that small area as well because I can see when it comes to adding leaves you will strike a few problems.

Please just always keep in mind with my comments that it is just my way of looking at things and there's a lot more knowledgeable people out there than me.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Andrew, one thing I can't translate:

What is:
......have a wee play


"Keep your backbone lines touching the borders"
you mean the ones I marked red?, you are right it will causes problem even if I redraw it in vectors.

The upper left looks better like this?

the "wee space" on the right that can cause some leaf problems, I would like to put a leaf that is on both sides of the stem, with an eye drop. But I can make the turn some more to the back of the knife.

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

A "Wee play"..........is my way of saying "do a bit more work in that area"

Areas marked in red....................yes

Green line.................yes

The area on the right........yes, curve a bit more and make that small unfinished line curve around (as best you can) and become the angle of the backbone of that scroll....which will mean adjusting the smaller joining scroll a bit as well.

Also keep your scrolls touching one another (far left scroll and small middle bottom scroll)

As you can see, they are very small things.................but start making a big difference to the design especially when you start filling with leaves and cutting and removing background.

You're doing great!!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Andrew, I now know what Wee Play is.

One of the reasons I did not play that much attention on the gaps between border an scrolls, is the sketch factor with this kind of designs. And it is in real size, so now I will double the size of the design so I can draw more precisely.

But I see what a difference it makes to draw the lines like the upper left (green) the way they should be.

The Wee Play I can fix that too, but I was that excited this morning knowing how to solve some of this design problems, that the Wee Play at the right had less importance.

But you are right, all details must be perfect.

Now up to the leaf part :banana:
And putting a leaf in the central scroll that breaks the big scroll and fills the gap down left of it like Ron suggested.

arnaud