Another design for my pocket knife.

[KCSteve]

Arnaud

I see one very small thing that could be tweaked - the scroll to the immediate left of the main center scroll comes off of the main line just a little bit sharply.

Lee Griffiths explained it neatly - scrolls should come off of the main line like exit ramps come off of highways, with a very smooth transition.

I think of it as it should be hard to tell which line is the main line. If you look at all of your other tranistions it's a toss up as to which way the 'main line' went. On that one scroll you can tell it's a break from the main flow. But if you move the point where it comes up just a little bit more to the right I think it will smooth it right out.

This design is really evolving nicely. When and if you come to a 'final' design it might be good to move this thread to the Tips section as an example of how to work up a design.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Steve, I see what you mean, as this design is is made real size, I now will redraw and refine it in a bigger size.
X2 looks to big, X1.5 looks fine.
First I will do the backbone lines the best I can and correct some lines, and the one you are talking about.
Than I start on the next part, the leafs. but that will take some time to have it right on the first attempt.

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

A couple of things you may wish to think about..................

Don't be afraid to draw big. You'll find it a lot easier if you do. I draw everything as big as it'll fit onto a page. Just try to keep a perspective of size so you don't end up with .25mm scrolls!!!

Don't draw the scroll backbones on the computer and then try to fill in the leaves. I know you like the computer side of things but just try to resist it at this stage

Keep all your design drawings in pencil................the reason I say this is that you will be constantly tweaking the scroll as you fill in the leaves and once you have a printed line you can't rub it out and make minor adjustments. By printing those lines you are physiologically committing yourself to them.

Keep all of that computer work till everything is done and completley finished and you are 100% happy with the design.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Andrew, that was the plan using pencil till it has to be transferred.
Although it is a good thing to print the space/form of the knife or whatever, where the design has to fit in, as it can easily be printed several times on one paper to draw the backbones or scroll and leafs as thumbs.
This don't change and does not need the gum.

And this contour is easily scaled X2 or x1.5 what I did, the rest is for the pencil, I trust on your advice.

Only today I have no time to draw as I have a lot of work that came in my shop, so now it is 23.00 our here and I'm going home now, leave my shop.

I'm not complaining about the lots of jewellery I have to make, but I want to finish all that so I can play a bit with pencil and engraver.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I have redraw the scroll pattern, fixing the minors that you pointed.
This on is X 1,5. Andrew suggest to draw it as big as possible, but I think I will then loose the feeling that it is a design for a small knife.
But times 2 could do it. But I will first try this one.

As I said before, it is drawn on calque, I have the scroll pattern on both sides, so if my gum slips, I still can easily redraw it.

So I think, drawing on both sides of this marvellous paper that can’t get tired, is a good way to have a back-up of the good parts of the design.

And something else, I draw for 30 years with a 0,3mm HB pencil, now for the first time I use a new pencil with a 3mm H2. Using a malleable gum works fine and does not smear the paper black.

I’m already concerned if there will be a but….


arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

That looks great!!

I really do hate to say this......................But..............

I'm being really pickey here......... but I figure that you will want to hear it now rather than later.

Your scroll (on the left of the centre large scroll)...........the line coming off it is a bit flat and needs rounding a bit more. It has the appearance of being a straight line at the moment.

The origin of your scroll (far right) looks good ...............but also needs slightly better curving. The smaller scroll would look better rounded more and coming further down the backbone of the larger scroll. The reason I say this is............. that it will break up that very large area in there that will cause some problems when you start drawing the leaves.

Your scrolls are still not touching the borders.............get them right on that border line

You're doing great!!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Okay, my turn to be picky. It's a nice design but be wary of hooking your smaller scrolls. The large ones spiral quite nicely but the small ones lack the spiral and hook in too quickly. Also, the large starter scroll on the right has a huge space that will need filling. If you use a leaf this will be totally out of proportion to the rest of the design. I suggest that you fill this space with another smaller scroll.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Marcus, I see what you mean, indeed the smaller scrolls ends very quickly. It is not so easy to find out where they should end, as I understand I have to respect equal space between large and small scrolls.

The small scrolls, up left an right down of the big central scrolls should end a little bigger to keep the space equal I suppose.

I also see this equal space within each scroll is not totally equal.
That means some scrolls have to be redraw, as they need to be round, touch the each other and the border precisely.

The open space on the left down you mention, I see how it can have an extra scroll, and probably it is easier to ad an extra scroll instead of a leaf that is well balanced. I will try both, as this will be a good practice to see if I can solve it the hard way with a leaf.

Thanks for you support Marcus

arnaud

 

[fegarex]

Arnaud,
I have made a rough (and I mean rough) drawing of your knife to show some areas I think could be improved.
Included are some elbows and smudge marks as I just did this really fast but you should get the idea.
The thing I changed first was the center main scroll. Your scroll just didn't seem to fit with the others. The spiral on it was more concentrated. I opened it up a bit. I also changed some of the smaller scrolls to be more "spiral" as well. There still may be some issues of scrolls being a bit too "straight" and other things but this cleans up some of the other issues. All in all you had a good design. Also my opinion is just that.. My opinion.. Others may disagree and there may be many other ways to improve this but I just thought some minor adjustments would help.
Rex

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Rex, the left small scroll, making it more curved fills some space at the bottom, and I knew that one.

The smaller scrolls you fixed, that looks better to me and I try to understand it.
It is also what Marcus suggested.
They where not much scrolls and they are now.

But so I have a question, as far as I understand reading Ron's books, the distance between the spiral has to remain the same because when placing the leaf this results in even leaf mass.
Perhaps I don't understand it well what is in the book, I think it says that this even distance between the lines of the spiral should remain the same, not only in each scroll, but also for all the scrolls in the same design.

So by making the big centre spiral the way you do, this distance becomes more compared to the others.

The reason why the smaller spirals turned so fast in a small turn, is also because I tried to respect the distance of the big central spiral to them.

So am I wrong that this distance should be the same in all the spirals in the same design?

arnaud

 

[Ron Smith]

Arnaud,

I gave this rule as a general rule for a basis of understanding. An experienced engraver breakes the rules at times for the sake of balance and the whole composition, but knows where and how. This rule is to give you a starting point of understanding. Your design is very good, and the things the other guys are mentioning are points of finnesse according to their experienced creative sensitivities. Everyone will apply their own personality to their interpretation. Nothing wrong with that, but you see the slight difference in Rex's drawing and yours? They are subtle but important. I would never tell you that my way is the only way. I just hoped to give the student a means of beginning to understand the finer points, or something to start with.

Believe me, if you did not have and observe these structural rules until you had more experience with design, your drawings would not look nearly as good as they do. Your drawings are very good and getting better quickly.

Now let me ask you? Does your sense of balance relate better to Rex's rendition or to yours? These are sublte things, but this shows the difference of one used to working with scrolls and one just begining to have a relationship with them. You are not trained exactly to the minutia and detail of what makes for well constructed scrolls and compositions. You get that as you work with them.

Don't be dissapointed with what you have done. For the time you have spent, you are coming on very fast and this has been a good study I think for everyone, including me.

Rock on Buddy!!

Ron S

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Ron, I see that the scrolls of Rex are more balanced.
I also had the feeling when working on this design, the smaller scrolls didn't look much like scrolls.
I also understand that the rules I follow are not strict, but a guideline to explore.
This is my first real attempt to make a design, and for sure I learn a lot from both reading your book and trying to use all this information by practising on design.
And the only reason I come that fast is that I have comments on what I draw, and you all may be very critical and strict. So if I had only the books and no one that looks over my shoulder, it would take much more time and frustration and a lot of badly engraved designs.

Making one design don't make me a designer, but when I draw my next design, there will be less mistakes because you all showed me the way how to start.

Sure it is good to have you around to correct some interpretations I made by reading your books.
And there is so much information in it, my head is to small to place all of it in the right context from the first time.

Thanks, arnaud

 

[FANCYGUN]

Arnaud
In one of the issues of The Engraver last year. There was an article on design in which four of us, Rex, Sam W, Ron and myself each had to explain how we went about designing a layout for the same shotgun. The approach and design differences was very interesting. All very valid designs with a personalized approach. You would find it very interesting reading.
Marty

 

[fegarex]

Arnaud,
I went away for lunch and see that the guru of scrolls answered your question. I'm glad of that as I really wasn't sure how to give an answer! Again, like others have said, you have a nice design going. It also seems like you take the critique well which is the best way to learn. And, as I said my ideas were how I would approach this, but it doesn't really make it the right way but just another option. I think you have really done well with what you have done so far and perhaps not only helped yourself but helped others as well.
Keep it up!
Rex

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Rex, I understand my question to you based on Ron's books was not one you could answer easily.
So we are both lucky Ron is always around.
And it is not my intention to criticise the books or all of you who are willing to help me to improve my design skills.
But it was what I stored in my head, so I had to ask.

And it will always be a problem when one writes a guideline about something that is obvious to him for some who don't.
Even words have not just one significance. It is the context that makes it.
And I think my English is getting better, but it is still not my mother tongue.

Ron's answer however helped me a lot, and helps a lot to order the information in his books.
Sure he is telling in his book that some rules are not obligated, but using that from the start does not help.

My my public agony about design in this tread, I'm sure it helps others in this community to improver their skills.

arnaud

PS, I will be buzzy making jewellery because I have a lot of orders, and sometimes it is useful to take a breath, so all the information can take its place.

I will draw on this, but I won't hurry on it, as I need some time to make some money and rank all this new information.

arnaud

 

[fegarex]

Arnaud,
Don't worry about questioning what information was given to you. That is how we all learn. I have found this thread very refreshing because you have allowed others to "tear you apart" so to speak and give advice. So many people only want a pat on the back and be told what they are doing is great. You have taken the information and put it to great use. And by the way.. I am amazed how well you do with English!
Yes, sometimes taking a break and stepping back helps. Plus I know making a living is important too! Keep up the good work and we will all benefit from this thread!
Rex

 

[John B.]

Right-on Marcus

Okay, my turn to be picky. It's a nice design but be wary of hooking your smaller scrolls. The large ones spiral quite nicely but the small ones lack the spiral and hook in too quickly. Also, the large starter scroll on the right has a huge space that will need filling. If you use a leaf this will be totally out of proportion to the rest of the design. I suggest that you fill this space with another smaller scroll.

That is great advise Marcus has given you Arnaud.
The large space below the starter scroll need a scroll as well as leaves.
And less hooking in the small scrolls will help everything flow better.
Very nice design you have refined with the addition of these couple of changes.
Congratulations on a VERY helpfull subject, Arnaud.
I'm sure your knife will be beautiful.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

Back again

As you can see..........The design is done in stages and evolves as you are drawing it.

The first, and most critical part, is the initial scroll backbones. If they are wrong then everything else that follows tends to be wrong. This is your design structure.

Once you have established a nice structure (scroll backbones) and most things are in place..........then you start refining the design.

This will involve minor adjustments to things like your scroll shapes that Rex & Marcus have pointed out.

As you start filling in with leaves............more refining of the design takes place as problem areas become more obvious that you don't see in the beginning. The large area to the right is a good example.......once you start trying to fill it with leaves then you realise that you may have to fill it with something like a smaller scroll (or scrolls) to break the area up and keep your leaf mass from getting too large and out of proportion.

These things are not always obvious in the beginning so don't stick rigidly to your initial design..........be prepared to alter and change things as you go and make modifications to the design as needed.

So it really is a process that involves constant refining with drawing, rubbing out, redrawing, adding a few bits, maybe taking bits out.....so you will be constantly adjusting areas as you come to them..............if your initial structure (scroll backbones) is good, then it's easy enough to do.

You will also find that when you start cutting you may make even more minor adjustments as you come to practical problems to solve within the design.

Without a doubt, you are embarking on the hardest area of engraving..........and that is the design.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Andrew, I hope you had a good days of, and glad you are back.

As I said before, I'm very buzzy making money, but in the mean while in my head there is a lot going on so things will fall in the right place. (take a breath)
I'm now again reading and practising the leaf structure in Ron's books, and I'm remaking the design, filling it with balanced leaves.

In the mean while I've been practising on scenery engraving, not with dots but lines.
I will show this in an other tread and I think I found out something real good.
This is also one of the most important skills.
I have some personal ideas on it that I'm willing to share in the Café

Today, Sunday I've been working in my shop, to finish some jobs, so I can concentrate on design and engraving. I know I'm not very stress resistant, so the only way to solve this is to finish some jobs.

I know I do a lot of learning in a short time, but I can't do it the other way. I'm convinced that one has to be a maniac to improve his skills, and that is the way I am.
And I'm lucky to have a understanding wife

 

[Ron Smith]

shock Maniac?!...........Understanding wife?.... Hell, welcome to the club Arnaud ......I think many of us can certainly relate to that!!

I think we all are obsessive, compulsive, maniacle, stubborn, compelled, undaunting, excentric,...........and extremey creative...........That is what makes us so wonderful!!!! ...............right?............HeeHeeHee

Ron S

Back to work