Another design for my pocket knife.

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Mr. John, sure I’m open fore some more, as it is the only way to learn.

I have added some red letters on the parts I think you point on to make sure I understand you well.

- As far as I understand it, A and B are the leafs that seems to come of the border line, they don’t match with anything else in the design and should come of the backbone in the other way like I corrected a bit in red. ?
A is the leaf that is causing the “camel hump” ?

I have no scanner in the shop so had to draw this with vector.
So if I have understand it right, I will refine that with the pencil when I got home.

- The scroll F needs more shading to be balanced. ?

- G and D needs more refinement than I show in the design, this means some extra main lines for the leafs ?

So I’m not sick of this “nit-picking” (we say: muggezifterij as I had to translate this)

But…… the leafs A and B I like them very much. Indeed they catch the eyes on them, so that is perhaps why you point on them.

Before you point on this A and B, I was thinking to change all the other small leafs I added where Andrew pointed on with his red crosses, the way they come out from the backbone like A and B.
So as you say that A and B does not match anything in the design, could it me an option to ad more like A and B or is does it always ruin the flow when an outside leaf and bud come out the backbone from this direction?

I know, a lot of questions, but that is how I experience, the more I know the more questions.

Thank you Ron, and sure your books are a great help

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Cutting a Kershaw knife

I was already told cutting the Kershaw could be hard as the metal is not smooth steel.
Indeed, at the inside I tried some small cuts to see how hard.
I have tried a carbide square, but the point breaks quite easy, USA glen steel can't be used, only a HSS X-7 seems to work.
I then disassembled the knife and heated the part that I want to engrave, as I thought it could be tempered.
It is not just tempered, it is in the alloy, but it seems after heating it, it has become softer.

No mater what or how, I will cut this knife or I will make one like it myself.
A blade from a good piece of steel I have from a broken kitchen knife, the other parts I can make them from Titanium that is really nice to cut.

I also could make only that side part of the knife in Titanium if the original is to hard to cut.

An other idea I have is to order the new GRS C-Max engraver I have read about.

arnaud

 

[John B.]

Hi Arnaud,
Thanks for your reply.
Yes Arnaud, the two main problems ( to my eye ) are at A & B.
You would be better served to cut #A as you have redrawn it in red on this post.
That takes away the "camel hump effect" from the top of that scroll and also creates some black background next to the border which matches better to the other exterior leafwork.
#B would be MUCH better if it came off the backbone of the lower scroll and pointed towards the border. Again, this would put some background next to the border like the other exterior leaves and would also more nearly ballance with the outside leaf design on the right hand end of the knife.
At G the only minor problem to me was to cut the foldover of the leaf a little more subtle than it is drawn. But I'm sure you already had this in mind.
D... my comment is the same as at G.
At E a tiny amount of seperation between the leaf and the backbone would help to break up the visual mass in this area.
Just a minor reshaping of this outside leaf would do the trick. Or it could be done with a little heavier cut in this area where the leaf and spine of the scroll touch so that the two elements have a slight visual separation.

I think you are on to something with your idea if remaking the handle of your Kershaw knife out of another material.
I cut one once a it was a bear that nearly ate me up. Great little knife but never again.

Thank you for being so patient.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

John, relay appreciate your feedback.

I think I got almost all the answers, and not for this design only but as I like to do much more dawning, my rucksack (rugzak in Dutch) has to be good filled.

Besides the problems of A and B, I understand them quite well. As Andrew said to keep it simple for a beginner, I still think this design is quite basic. But one has to start at the beginning and can't skip progress.
And although it has become quite complicated yet to engrave properly, the leafs D and G will be even harder to engrave properly when I make them more complicated.
As this design is double size.
Giving the first inner leaf at E more space from the stem is easy and I see that.

But..... I still haven't the answer why A and B has to come out of the stem with the but pointed the other way, as I learned from Phill and Ron that there are no rules as long as it looks good.
And besides that these little leaves catch my eyes all the times as I like them, I can only think of one reason to change them, is that they catch my eyes.

So please if you could explain me why the buts have to point the other way like my correction in red on A and B from the other scroll like your advice.

Thanks for your patience, arnaud

 

[John B.]

Araund,
Nothing has to do anything.
It's yours. If you like what you have then just cut it.

 

[Roger Bleile]

Arnaud,

Watching the evolution of your design reminds me of Beethoven's fifth symphony. Just about everyone has heard it, or parts of it at least, and "the fifth" is considered by many to be the most perfect composition written.

Knowing of Beethoven's genius for composition, one would think that the fifth just flowed off the tip of his pen as we know it. Yet this was far from the way it happened. Beethoven wrote numerous drafts. If you heard the first draft you would say "that's really good." Then you hear the next draft played and say "yes, that's better, I would go with that." And so it went until Beethoven reached perfection. If he would have settled for any of the earlier drafts we would have had a pretty fine piece of music that most could enjoy but due to his perserverence he created a masterpiece. Even though Beethoven was, by the time of the fifth symphony, a great composer, he undoubedly learned things in the process that eventually led to his crowning glory, the ninth symphony.

And so it goes with your knife design. Had you settled for your first design, many of the local folks would have said "very nice engraving." When they eventually see your evolved design they will recognize its beauty but never know the evolotion it took to get there.

CRB

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

"I can only think of one reason to change them, is that they catch my eyes"

Yes, that is correct. You have answered your own question which is good to see as it shows you are starting to develop and understanding of what you are doing. By themselves they do look very nice.............it is when they are incorporated with the rest of the design that they look a little out of place.

They also interupt the flow of the design............think of it like smooth running water and then it suddenly meets an obstacle...........the flow is interupted........then carries on.

This is what is called a focal point.......that means your eyes are drawn to them. Now there is nothing wrong with a focal point if that is your intention. For example a game scene or portrait on a gun which is the focal point and everything around it becomes the frame.

Remember that the overall design is several elements built up on one another to create harmony within the design. Draw the changes that John has pointed out and you will see the differenece that it makes to the design.

These are hard concepts to follow at the beginning and can seem quite confusing because there are no real black and white rules, only guidelines and concepts. After a while it will all become second nature and you will notice them automatically.

It's a bummer that the metal is so hard!!!


Cheers
Andrew

 

[Kevin P.]

Andrew and Roger, wise men both and you also John B
I think Roger's allusion to Beethoven is apt and to the point. And it's better that they don't know of the back stage stuff; let them think you're a genius.
Andrew's detailed design critique is post graduate stuff; his comments will be applicable to every thing you do in the future as will Roger's comments.
I feel lucky to have come along as you Arnaud were starting this venture. I've learned more than I could have imagined.
Kevin P.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thanks John

Dear John, thanks

I have been busy with paper and pencil.
I had to find out about the two small leaves at the left and I think I was right that it was about the focal point.
Andrew confirmed it, but even without, I would have given it a try as it is the only way to find out.
I’m quite sure the focal point is gone, and a design like this must manipulate the eyes all over the design.

I also changed some others that you pointed on, and changed some.

About the shading, I begin to understand that shading is like doing a scene.
You don’t see lines, just catching the light in a way that looks very similar to a design. In fact I suppose an engraving is just a design, without pencil or paint, just catching light.
And because there are no pencils with points like an engraver, and no paper as hard as metal, an engraved design can look like the ultimo design.

I have been trying to make the shading look like I think the engraving should look like, but I think it can’t. The point of the pencil is not sharp enough.

So if I’m right, one can engrave a design/sketch or a design/photo and all what is in between. If it has to be perfect, there are no shading lines that can be seen.

Or did I do to much thinking? :big grin:

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

My control on the pencil has improved, so I also will have to improve my engraving skills to cut this design.

I'm sure this design still can be improved, but now I have to stop with this design, just cut it. So I'm still open on advises about improvements that could be done on this design, I than will try to ignore them, as I want to go on to a next design.
And I really come from far with design, but I cant learn it al with just one design.
My design skills still improve, so if I go on with this design I have to redraw even the backbone, I will do that perhaps when I'm out of inspiration.

Never the less, al comments are weolcome

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

Yes, I think you have reached the point where it is definatley time to cut it.

And you are right.......you can't learn everything on one design. It's a series of steps from one design to the next. Over time you some of the design features will become automatic. But you should also experiment as well because engraving is also a personal artistic expression. Developing the eye for what looks good and what dosn't just takes time and practice mixed with some keen observation skills.

The more you look at it the more you can find things to change, that's for sure. And the shading with a pencil can only give you a guideline to follow

What is important is that you take what you have learnt with this one and carry it on to the next project.

You've come a very long way.........The design is beautiful, the drawing is beautiful, the shading is beautiful and I'm looking forward to seeing the knife cut.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[ddushane]

I'm with Andrew, I think it's time to cut Arnaud! I know it'll look good! I can't wait to see it.

Dwayne

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you all, indeed I will cut it now, I have a HSS x7 ready for this one, but I will first try it on a practice plate, so I will be buzzy for a while. :big grin:

arnaud

 

[KCSteve]

Definitely cutting time!

I think you've taken this design as far as you can with the pencil - and it is nice!

When you cut it I think it will teach you many things.

If you didn't cut it, your next design would improve as a drawing but by cutting this one your next design will improve as an engraving.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

There is no other way for me than cutting my first really design that came out with all of your help, especially Andrew.

I was told the Kershaw is hard to cut, and indeed it is hard as hell.
I ordered a C-max graver en perhaps it could work better, I have also come carbide, Glensteel and HHS X-7.
I is the HHS X-7 that I have used to cut the main lines, I also tried some shading lines to see if the graver point would hold and it does.

Cutting the mainline however ruined my X-7 graver after some cuts. So I had to engrave this with not sharp tools, and sharpen a lot. A graver that is not sharp don’t doe what you want it to do. So I’m glad it does not look too bad, but I know I could have cut more precisely if the Kershaw wasn’t that hard.

The carbide bur to remove the background works well, although it will take some time to remove the whole background.

Shading will work with less problems I hope and tested.

The background also has to be stippled to make it darker, that could not be a problem.

I only show you this to show you my progress. It is my Pocketknife I will cherish it and I like it already, even knowing I could have engraved it better if the Kershaw wasn’t that hard.
But I go for it to do the best I can on this one, but: “Never again”

I will make a Titanium knife using the same technique as this knife so I can work it out like it has to be.

To be continued :big grin:

arnaud

 

[Daniel Houwer]

Hard of niet, dat ziet er goed uit Arnaud!
I am looking forward to seeing the final result and the titanium one you are planning.

Greetings,

Daniel

 

[Chapi]

You got way further on your Kershaw than I did mine! I found that Spyderco knives engrave really easy, and they are affordable and easy to find. I look forward to seeing your next work!

 

[airamp]

arnaud

First of all Thank you for your stages of drawing on the Kershaw and everyone else that helped you on this tutor.

I really like the kershaw's and wonder why they are so hard to cut??

They are supposed to be 410ss are they hardened??

Did anyone try the black tungsten DLC coated Kershaws? Do you think they will chip?

You are really doing a super job on the knive so far.

thanks again I think it will be worth all the work it really is comming out very nice.

AirAmp

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

arnaud

First of all Thank you for your stages of drawing on the Kershaw and everyone else that helped you on this tutor.

I really like the kershaw's and wonder why they are so hard to cut??

They are supposed to be 410ss are they hardened??

AirAmp

If they are hardened I could have make mine soft as I heated it red and left it cool down slowly. The colour changed of course that is why I had to use sandpaper and polished it after that.
But it made no change in hardness, so it is probably the alloy that makes the knife so hard.
The blade is probably Ice hardened, but I will not try to engrave it. :big grin:

Normally I would have practice this design first on a practice plate. I already tried to do some cuts on the inside of this knife part, so I knew how hard it was en it stayed hard after heating it.
A carbide graver was no option as the point breaks with the first millimetre.
So I had two options, using a HHS-x7 that loses his sharpness in two minutes, ore making a similar plate in Titanium to put on my pocket knife.
So I can still go for the second option but I prefer to make a similar knife by myself in Titanium that looks like the Kershaw. That one I can engrave on both sides like I want it to be.

So all the mistakes that I see that are the result of the hardness of the knife, some of you wont see... if so I'm doing good. As there are no artists who stays satisfied with an finished work for more than a week. That is why they can't stop starting all over again.

Removing the background like it looks now took me a whole day. So I will show my engraving progress some more till it is finished.

I now also beginning to understand what Martin Strolz meant when he said to me: “If you really think that a smooth cut is the major or even only sign of quality of an engraving you are simply wrongâ€￾.

arnaud

 

[soj]

Arnaud, it looks great so far, I only wish I could cut soft metal as well as you have cut this hard metal. Thanks again for the thread, it's been very educational.