Why are all newbies struggling with the same problems

[GTJC460]

Bert, I understand your point, but tell me why a newbie should start comparing his first cuttings with "the best masters engravings", the newbie then is looking at some master piece he/she don't understand.
My idea this only will work for newbies when the engraving is just as basic as possible. However those who have the skills to make a perfect basic engraving don't, they do more advanced designs.

When I started, I bought me the GRS package of Ron Smith, with laser designs on the practice plates, easy to cut the lines, but I didn't know what I was doing and when I look at the practice plates now, yes nice designs, but sure not nice engraved as I didn't know what I was doing.

arnaud

Why not? There always needs to be a goal in learning. If you have no goal, you wander aimlessly about doing tasks at random. You become experienced in many things, but really don't master anything. The saying "jack of all trades, but master of none" is certainly the best explanation of my thinking.

I know when I first started learning engraving, I kept trying to do all kinds of different styles of engraving. Really not getting anywhere. It wasn't until I really started focusing on one particular subject that I really started to see marked improvement.

One of the first things I really mastered was doing a running leaf border. I can now do them virtually blindfolded and do them extremely quickly. It's still one of the decorative elements I use on a regular basis both in jewelry and firearms.

My point is that if a beginner has nothing to compare his work to in person, in a 3d form, it is very difficult to fully understand what he/she is doing correctly/incorrectly.

Mike Dubber's casting of border styles would be an excellent first casting to buy. But as we were talking about scroll design and cutting, I tried to recommend some examples of scroll.

http://www.engravingtransfers.com/BorderCasting.JPG

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Bert, I agree you can learn a lot when studying the real work, even if it is a casting copy. While I was cutting my first project (pocket knife) I was invited by Chris DeCamillis to say hello at the Alexandre School in Antwerp. It was there I saw a real engraving for the first time. It only was a few minutes I could look at it using my x10 loupe.
It where not the High End engravings and in a way I was disappointed as I already had seen photos that did excite my imagination much more.
My first goal wasn't about making my own designs, gold inlay or bulino scenes. I just wanted to be able to decorate any item with some scrolls and doing some lettering. Not that much more that is done by machine now a days.
I only wanted it to do by hand, the old way.
Of course I was and still am fascinated by the Master High End engravings. Is it my goal to become one? No I have no ambition on that.
If I imagine how for instance Phil Coggan is working like crazy on those Holland & Holland and Purdey's, no not my goal!

"Master Jack of all trades" suits me better that is why all of my work I do it myself because I like it all. I have a lot of variations in my daily job.
And here it is not America, most people don't know what engraving or goldsmitting is about, the next generation here a lot of them they think there is a tree for everything and that things just grow on it.
In the land of the blind, one eye is king. and believe me I am. I make customers happy and got paid for it, they call me master, artist and they adore me. What can one desire more than that?

What good is it when you are a Master and you can hardly look outside your box.

arnaud

 

[GTJC460]

I think you've taken my comments the wrong way. Basically I'm saying you need to know what is good to start the learning process. If you don't know what is considered good you live in a world of ignorance. Doing the same thing over and over without learning and expecting a new or better result is the definition of stupidity.

So my question is, how can you learn what is good if you have no real example?? You don't. You are ignorant of what is considered good. This might be fine if you live in a bubble.

 

[DKanger]

If you don't know what is considered good you live in a world of ignorance. Doing the same thing over and over without learning and expecting a new or better result is the definition of stupidity.

Ignorance is the lack of knowledge about a particular subject.
Stupidity is the failure to realize you are ignorant.
Stupidity is often influenced by ego.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

OK... this is too difficult for me to express in my poorly English vocabulary but I try.

In my opinion every human can see the difference between good and bad "Artwork", even when living in a bubble with no real examples. That because Art it is human.

Besides different culture and education influences, we all are able to recognize beauty. That does not mean we all like the same things, that because of personal preferences and those change in time.

Yes, if you never saw an elephant, you can only draw one by accident, but sure you can draw everything else you see. Does it have to be photo-realistic? not in my opinion, a child can do.

When I say "human" I don't mean the stupid ones.

 

[Roger Bleile]

After being on the engraving forums for some time, I realized that many beginners were trying to learn gun engraving without ever seeing an engraved gun first hand. It is also very common for beginners on these forums to try to teach themselves bulino engraving having only seen it in pictures (which is very deceiving). For that reason, I and others pack up a bunch of engraved guns, knives, and other objects to display at Scott's Engrave-In. I don't just bring my own work. I bring some of my collection of engraved guns as well as small items that I have been given by other engravers over the years.

Castings are a good study aid but there is nothing like seeing the real thing at close observation. Along with the Engrave-In and FEGA show, people in the USA can visit any one of thousands of gun shows where you can see and closely examine the good, the bad, and the ugly. Many Café members are not "gun people" but it would behoove you to visit a major gun show for a look. I know from the comments I get about my display items at the Engrave-In that people who have never seen an engraved gun first hand are often quite surprised at how the depth, width, and flare of cuts varies from what they expected from pictures.

For those of you in Europe there are still high end gun shops in most of the major cities. There are also some of the world's best museums that contain decorative art. In London the Victoria & Albert has a mind blowing array of examples of engraved and carved items. In Paris, of course, the Louvre. In Germany, the Waffen Museum in Suhl. In Belgium, Le Grand Curtius in Liege. And so on.

In my opinion, trying to learn engraving without seeing examples first hand would be like aspiring to be a wildlife artist having only seen pictures of animals.

Cheers,
Roger

 

[GTJC460]

I'm glad I'm not the only one with my point of view.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

So do I Bert.

arnaud