Why are all newbies struggling with the same problems

[dlilazteca]

Andrew

Wow did you say all that I'm one breath! Hahah, I hope you feel better.

Just don't give up helping

Carlos De La O III

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Wow did you say all that I'm one breath

Heck no......that was a two breath rant

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Gemsetterchris]

It`s not just scroll design & engraving that has these issues..anything that requires hours of practice & dedication to fully understand & master is full of impatient people who want that shortcut that does`nt exist.
Even losing weight or getting in shape, these things require zero skill, just time & effort...something that these days people just don`t want to put in...or then they do "kinda sorta" which only gives "kinda sorta" results.
If you want to crack something, be patient & knuckle down, take a page at at time & get to the end of the book or even partway someday with a result.

Cheating or skipping bits is easy, Catch yourself & go back & be tough on yourself as you are your own worst enemy.
Post & ask help or advice..you`ll get it if someone that knows can see you are trying for sure & they`ll also know if you skipped a page

I`m guilty of some of these things myself..probably why you won`t find anything but a few practice scratches by me in the past few years & I`m abit unfit Lol.
(I`ve gone backtracking countless times with engraving) but it`s a second string to learn "maybe oneday".

If your great at some other skill, take time to realise just how you got there..

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Andrew, your reply comes close to a "quick start manual"

By reading all the replies I think they have one thing in common, that it takes time and effort. I also noticed now a days we have access to a lot of good information to study design and engraving. Perhaps there is too much information that makes it difficult to see the trees in the forest.

In my opinion, no matter if one chooses taking a class or study on his / her own, it is most important only to use that information that you need while on track to develop your skills.
If one tries to handle too much information at a time, there will be chaos.
By taking one step at a time, only making the next step once one understands the previous one, is the right and only way to progress. Like said before, patience!

We probably all walk a different road to success, so I'm not saying Andrew is wrong when he keeps pointing at the importance of drawing with a pencil. However it took me 3 years till now to walk that road using an old method "Drawing on Chinese White" at real size. Before most designs I made was using vectors. Was that the wrong way to start, I think not.
It is only now that I'm ready to skip transfers but I learned what I wanted to learn the way I wanted it to learn. I never got frustrated or impatient.

So my short advice to newbies, "stay calm and don't create chaos in your brain" by taking one step at a time.

If you only master one leaf structure, make a nice design using only that one and cut it. There is nothing wrong with that and difficult enough to do it the best you can. You will be surprised how nice simple things can look when done right. Then you are ready for the next step.

arnaud

 

[SamW]

Arnaud, you are right about too much information...we are drowning in a sea of information for a lack of knowledge. I have been studying and cutting scroll for about 45 years now and I keep learning new things about it and hopefully keep improving. It is a lifetime journey and I enjoy it more each year.

Those who really get into it I hope will have as much pleasure from it as I have!!

 

[JJ Roberts]

I believe Andrew explain it the best hang in there don't give up. J.J.

 

[Sam]

For impatient beginners, you will get the same instant gratification from hand engraving as you'll get from learning a musical instrument. Yeah, you can learn a simple song in a week or two but it's unlikely you'll be ready for a stage performance. Same with engraving. You can take a class or read books or follow videos, but you will still be faced with countless hours of practice before your work reaches a high level. Sorry, but there's just no way around this. All the fancy tools and technology won't help you without putting in plenty of bench time.

When my banjo students ask me how much time per day I want them to practice, I tell them that by asking that question it sounds to me that they perceive practice as punishment or a necessary evil. You should WANT to practice. You should be willing to do whatever it takes to juggle your schedule to make time to practice. It's the same with hand engraving. If you perceive practice as a necessary evil, then I don't think engraving is for you. You have to want it, and want it badly, and you have to enjoy practicing and the feeling of accomplishment you'll get as you take baby steps. You have to be willing to pick yourself back up from the floor and dust off when it kicks your ass because IT'S GOING TO KICK YOUR ASS.

 

[mitch]

Sam just touched on another point I'd like to make: A student can easily learn about far, far more in even a beginner level class in a week than can be usefully absorbed and translated into actual skills in a year. One of the difficulties in teaching something like engraving is the very strong physical component. An instructor can show a student a relatively simple operation, but it may take months of practice before the student reaches a decent degree of mastery.

The classes are certainly valuable, but it would be nice if there was then a way to get an hour or so of hands-on instruction once a week. I think Chris DeCamillis was on the right track with his online video classes...

 

[fred carter]

Just out of curiosity I dumped my latest box of practice plates - engraved on both sides - it weighed almost 18 pounds. If nothing else I learned long ago that nothing comes easily (it took me a while to get that in my head). On our trips to Japan we became good friends with Hiroko Nakamura the great pianist, with all of her skill and fame she would practice five hours a day. One never stops learning

 

[fred carter]

practice

here is a photo of some of my 18 pounds of practice.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Yes Mitch, Chris DeCamillis started free basic engraving lessons, the only thing he asked for was students would participate and showing their practicing. But only a few took advantage of that and that is a downer.
Still all that info is free to anyone willing to learn, instead of using the info it seems struggling is more fun.

arnaud

 

[Bama]

Arnaud you are correct, most beginners want to start off with making beautiful scrolls and be able to cut them but only to find out that it is not that easy and either get discoraged and quit or keep digging until they get a little success.

I started out with Meek's book. I did not understand what I was reading but I kept trying. I tried to sharpen gravers to what I was seeing in the books but with little success. Needless to say my cutting reflected my inablity to properly sharpen a graver. I struggled for about 3 years and then I decided to take a GRS class.

This is the best advice to give to a "Newbee" spend the money to take a class. No tools required, no investment in books or CD's that you may or may not understand. We all know the truth about this type of work in that it is not a skill that is easily developed. I also know it is not easy to get a newbee to make the commitment to take a class. It is much easier to spend a $100 for books and CD's than it is to spend $900 on a beginers class, but it will be the best money they will ever spend and will save them years of trial and error.

I learned more in the first day of the GRS beginners class than in the whole 3 years of trying to learn from books, which by the way probably cost me a third of what the class cost.

After the class with GRS was over I felt that I could actually become an engraver. I looked back and all I could think about was the three years I wasted trying to learn on my own.

Now don't get me wrong I love all the books and CD's which I have several of. The difference is now I understand what the books and CD's are telling me. The newbee will save much time and grief if we tell them the truth up front, "IF YOU REALLY WANT TO LEARN ENGRAVING, TAKE A CLASS OR FIND AND ENGRAVER WHO WILL INSTRUCT YOU" then you have really helped them.

 

[JJ Roberts]

If your not sure of a design put on paper first and then on a practice plate,this is a never ending study of the art of engraving.Like Fred said nothing come easy.Practice,draw,and it will all fall together for you. J.J.

 

[rayf24]

There is no easy path to enlightenment only a long and winding road and as long as one doesn’t leave the road you will reach your destination, but there are many steep hills and sharp corners to negotiate.
Some will drink from the fountain of knowledge and are refreshed with the wisdom of others then there are those that only gargle and spit it out finding that they are not refreshed on their journey will wither and died before reaching journeys end.
To all newbie’s there is a huge fountain here and on other forums use it wisely pay attention to what they say and show you will achieve your goal or at least a level that you are comfortable with.
I for one have started down the road and coming up to 60 I may never see the end of the road but Damm there is some nice scenery shown here that makes it worth the journey. :thinking:

( Non of the above is buddisium or any other religion just an old farts thoughts)

Ray

 

[highveldt]

I say, Andrew, Old Boy. Perhaps you have forgotten that your matric speech that was assigned to you, with the stiff upper lip and keep marching on and all that rot is NOT for the New Boys-- however we wanted you to speak to the Old Boys, while they were here visiting their grandsons. It is for the Old Boys who went off decades ago to war and work and had interesting and successful careers and are now back learning to do "crafty" things. They know all about diligence, patience, persistence and practice makes perfect.

At least Sam's poll results demonstrate that the Old Boys (and Girls) likely make up the majority of learners of this craft on this forum.

After I read your comments to the Newbies this morning I went down to my shop and engraved a while (re-engraving the English scroll--needs it bad in some areas) on one of my antique English guns for a couple of hours ( this one a 1889 Stephen Grant & Sons) to think about your writing before I responded. At my bench it came to my mind that the so called newbie audience on this forum are not School Boy age. We could and can use real life tips and advice, like why I am still engraving too deeply after 5 years of practice.

Regards;
Steve

 

[Willem Parel]

The nail on the head Steve...

Willem, ( newby of 63 )

 

[Sam]

Cutting too deeply is likely because of too short of a heel, dull or broken point, or graver control. It can also happen with cast metals and if your workpiece isn't held solidly and vibrates during cutting.

 

[Beladran]

Arnaud, thanks for that link. I have a little thumb drive that I have been storing engraving knowledge on. That is the sort of info I like to read.

 

[Caty Blom]

Thanks all for the reactions, and for your information, Willem and I are not twins, but my age is also 63. I enjoy every day of being busy with studying drawing and hopefully there will be many more to come. Greetings Caty.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

We could and can use real life tips and advice, like why I am still engraving too deeply after 5 years of practice.

Hi Steve

We can all form habits very quickly and one habit you may have gotten into (or not) is starting your cut with too steep an angle of attack. By that I mean, when you initially plunge your graver down into the metal, your angle is too high. This will cause the graver to plunge deeply into the metal. When you even out your hand you are then cutting deeply. It's very easily done and only takes a micro second to do it. It's the most common thing I see when demonstrating.

This especially comes into play when you are trying to make delicate shading lines.

On a scrap bit of metal.........lower your hand to a lower angle when you make that initial contact with the metal. A slight difference in angles can make a big difference (also reduce power on the foot pedal if you are using an air tool) This should give you a much shallower cut. It may seem strange at first but try it a few times to see if it makes a difference. If you are slipping out of the cut then your handle angle is too low. So it's a matter of finding that sweet spot.

The advise I gave is for newbies of all ages.

Cheers
Andrew