Why are all newbies struggling with the same problems

[GTJC460]

I still feel the best way to learn is to have real examples of a top engravers work. Yes do simplified versions and try to emulate what you observe in the master work. It's the only way to really compare your work to the best that's out there. Photographs don't convey what a 3d object conveys.

This is how my grandfather, father and myself learned many aspects of the jewelry making and engraving trades.

Be your own toughest critic. Compare it to the master work. Find the differences. Try to fix it by doing it over and over till you get it or do it better.

 

[dlilazteca]

I say, Andrew, Old Boy. Perhaps you have forgotten that your matric speech that was assigned to you, with the stiff upper lip and keep marching on and all that rot is NOT for the New Boys-- however we wanted you to speak to the Old Boys, while they were here visiting their grandsons. It is for the Old Boys who went off decades ago to war and work and had interesting and successful careers and are now back learning to do "crafty" things. They know all about diligence, patience, persistence and practice makes perfect.

At least Sam's poll results demonstrate that the Old Boys (and Girls) likely make up the majority of learners of this craft on this forum.

Regards;
Steve

Steve

I would have to disagree, us NEW BOYS still go off to war and serve our country. (Been there done that) and continue to have interesting careers, do you think that's diminished for some reason? It would be offensive to me and others that still have loved one's in harms way. To say that suggest that our current sacrifices don't matter, or are not as good, Not sure what that has to do with engraving? I have the upmost respect for past, current and future veterans.

Second most here are what you call old boys. Possibly true and nothing wrong with that, the newer generation always learns from the preceding generation. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

I am more than thankful to everyone that has and continues to help me, the new boy. And I can also understand that having to repeat what others have already asked must be really frustrating.
But how many times where we helped as kids over and over no matter how many questions we had because we could not get it through our thick skulls.

You guys are teachers keepers of great wealth, but with that comes patience and then some more patience. You must remember that I'm in the middle here part is old school and the other part is technology driven, meaning its easier to do things, and at times that is confusing to the newer people. Thinking that this is something learned over night like a computer program, was in the same boat, and boy was I wrong! Others in this thread have given very constructive criticism and I appreciate that and so will many others when they read this post.

Some are great engravers and some are great teachers some are both.

Not everyone learns at the same pace or by the same method, some are visual learners, some are hands on learners, and some are just naturally talented.

We just have to find a middle ground here don't be too quick in shooting us new boys down. Someone needs to continue this great tradition.

Thanks all for taking your time to read

And over all thanks for your time and dedication to us new boys!



Carlos De La O III

 

[highveldt]

Carlos;

My comments above that you referenced was a parody of and old British Movie titled "Goodbye Mr. Chips". The movie was about a typical British upper class "boarding school". I knew that Andrew, living in the British Commonwealth, probably would have seen this movie and would get a kick out of my parody.

I regret most greatly that you thought it was offensive to those who are young and have served our country. It was in no way intended. I suggest you re-read the parody and delete the word "war" and you will understand. I did not think about anyone who had not seen the movie would interpret as you have. Please forgive me.

Steve

 

[dlilazteca]

Steve

Thank you for clarifying and honest reply, it really means the world to me.



Carlos De La O III

 

[didyoung]

speaking for myself.....I find that like drawing a picture you must have a example of whatever you are trying to draw in front of you so that you can study it.
don't try to draw anything from memory. I have a clip board that I drawn on. on that clip board I have tapped pictures of other engravers work. different leaves and designs. whenever I am having trouble drawing a leaf I go back and look at my example.
I have taken a class and gained great bits of knowledge from it.
I have a big stack of books and dvds. I would not trade any of them. with all of these different books and dvds I am able to pull certain bits of information that I understand and then use that info to gain ground.
I have castings and plates that others have given me that really give me a fine example of what things should look like.

I am going to say that the most productive learning that I received was taking a drawing of my own and sitting down with someone else and talking about the areas that would need to be improved upon.....or showing it here on the forum and getting feed back.
listening to another engraver or artist explain their ideas is a great learning tool as well.

with drawing at some point I was able to recognize the spots that needed to be fixed. so I would work on that one thing...fix it and then look for the next thing that needed to be fixed. one step at a time. I am still doing that today. work at making this drawing or engraving better than the last one....at least one thing should be improved upon.

engraving....start with a simple line. learn how to cut just a line. I have cut a pile of geometric shapes...all just simple lines.
left to right and right to left....develop muscle memory.
i know that by learning how to engrave western bright cut or hand push engraving has greatly improved my tool and block control.

with every engraving or drawing that I finish I will go back a study it...print it out on a sheet of paper and use a marker of some kind and grade my work.
highlight the areas that look wrong. it sounds odd, but it works.

i don't think that you will ever find a short cut when it comes to engraving.
I am not where I want to be , but I am making progress everyday.



all of this takes study, practice and a desire to become better.

 

[BrianPowley]

Here's another thought:
What do you want this engraving skill to be?
If you are looking for a career, the mindset is much different than the hobbyist.
I once read a very valuable book called, "The 7 Habits of Highly Successful People" and the first rule was something like this,"Begin with the end in mind".
didyoung kind of swerved into a tremendously important point: "A desire to become better."
If you are looking at engraving as a career, let your desire become an all consuming passion.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Steve

No offence offered or taken

Yes, I remember Goodbye Mr. Chips. It was a good timeless story......now if you really want to read a series of light hearted humorous books about the British Empire, then you can't go past George MacDonald Fraser's books about Harry Flashman.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Gemsetterchris]

It's a shame that the very hardest part comes first.
Drawing in the scrolls to fit & flow correctly.
Probably why a lot of us get frustrated & say "that'll have to do", when it just won't

 

[Willem Parel]

Thank you Shawn for tellung us the way you are working very use full tips which I will follow.
The clip board with the tapped pictures is a great idea, I' d tryed it from memory but because of my age this becomes more and more difficult.....
Okay, now a rush to the shed to saw a clip board.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I still feel the best way to learn is to have real examples of a top engravers work. Yes do simplified versions and try to emulate what you observe in the master work. It's the only way to really compare your work to the best that's out there. Photographs don't convey what a 3d object conveys.

This is how my grandfather, father and myself learned many aspects of the jewelry making and engraving trades.

Bert, I understand your point, but tell me why a newbie should start comparing his first cuttings with "the best masters engravings", the newbie then is looking at some master piece he/she don't understand.
My idea this only will work for newbies when the engraving is just as basic as possible. However those who have the skills to make a perfect basic engraving don't, they do more advanced designs.

When I started, I bought me the GRS package of Ron Smith, with laser designs on the practice plates, easy to cut the lines, but I didn't know what I was doing and when I look at the practice plates now, yes nice designs, but sure not nice engraved as I didn't know what I was doing.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Shawn, yes you are right about learning by showing your work and listening to what can be improved.
If a young or old boy newbie understands the answers given when asking for help, and he/she uses those advices and show what he/she learned from it, yes than there is progress.
But very often, one gets a great advice and when reading his/here answer, it looks like nothing was understood and he/she keep making the same mistake. As if the advice/help was written in Chinese.

So in my opinion, when a newbie ask for help, let only one or two persons offer help like teaching. The one who asked for this help should take notice of the advice and translate it by showing what he/she learned from it.
That because the relation teacher student only works when there is interaction between them.

arnaud

 

[dlilazteca]

Shawn, yes you are right about learning by showing your work and listening to what can be improved.
If a young or old boy newbie understands the answers given when asking for help, and he/she uses those advices and show what he/she learned from it, yes than there is progress.
But very often, one gets a great advice and when reading his/here answer, it looks like nothing was understood and he/she keep making the same mistake. As if the advice/help was written in Chinese.

So in my opinion, when a newbie ask for help, let only one or two persons offer help like teaching. The one who asked for this help should take notice of the advice and translate it by showing what he/she learned from it.
That because the relation teacher student only works when there is interaction between them.

arnaud

Good idea

Carlos De La O III

 

[didyoung]

nope...I disagree.
who ever desires to offer help should jump in. its up to you to decide what to keep and what to toss to the side.
if you ever start to limit the comments or helpfulness of people they will soon start to just not even offer to help.
as a newbie might guess......other engravers are not going to just sit there and keep feeding you every little bit of information.
you have to at the least try to figure some things out by yourself.

other engravers think that when you offer advice that right at that moment you should change your ways......that wont happen either.
in order for a newbie to change something they must first understand its concept. that may take time.

engraving, drawing scrolls and design....they all take time and practice....plain and simple.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Shawn, with respect to your point of view, in a way when one gets good advice on the forum, isn't it common that others step back a bit so it becomes less confusing to the one that asked for help? I agree one can make a choice what to keep and what to toss, but it isn't that simple.
So in my experience, and especially when for instance Andrew is guiding someone to the goal, we do not interrupt by telling the contrary.
It happened a few times to me when asking for critique, that I had that several different cures for a problem that it felt like I was a Jojo (puppet on a string)

If you think about it, when taking a class, and yes I never had one, but isn't it that one teacher that guide you on a particular project. From what source you drink when you get home is another question.

arnaud

 

[leo]

thank you Arnaud for starting this thread I think I another problem beside the one you have explain is that us newbies have is that we try to cram us much information as possible all at once witch is the most wrong full thing to do my point of view is that if your starting to practice the art of engraving start simple don't go all the way out because you are not going to learn anything all that is going to happen is your equipment on e-bay so before that happens start small and easy
my recommendation start executing lettering before you start doing complex work by master and don't go buying every book and DVD you find because what is going to happen is you just going to get confuse try one thing at a time I am shore that every master in this forum study every form of engraving at once I bet they started one at a time and it took them years to master it remember a baby does not start walking a few hours after his born so don't you try to learn a skill that has taking people years to master in a few days

a recommendation is read the jewelry engraving manual and don't read more book at the same time so wont start confusing your self remember don't wine up with a library in your house on engraving if you don't know how to use it

 

[Big-Un]

This thread has appeared at just the right time, as I have a gentleman interested in engraving after seeing some of my work, and I have been contemplating how to tell him it is not an easy or quick process. He is 70 years old (nothing wrong in that!) and wants to see if he can engrave. All I can do is be honest with him, let him cut some with the H&C and let him determine his future in the art.

He saw my work on a rifle I did for the Lodge to raffle to raise funds for the Masonic Home for Children in Oxford, North Carolina, (we raised over $4,000 for them from the raffle, from a $550 gun) and now wants to see if he can do it himself. Andrew, you said what I have been trying to compose for him in precise language, and I hope you don't mind if I print it and use it when he comes by.

Without dedication and the DESIRE to learn and persevere through all the obstacles that present themselves as we struggle to understand the craft, both in artistic rendering and the technical side of the proper tool geometry to achieve the cuts we're after, we will NEVER succeed. This is true for any endeavor we may seek, whether engraving, music or business. It seems we have been raised with an "instant gratification" mentality that undermines the necessity of study and practice. I've seen it all too often in our younger generation. My grandmother called it "laziness" but it seems to be the accepted form today.

Well, enough of that. Thanks again to all responders to this thread. It is a good one.

Bill

 

[Dale Hatfield]

Since joining the forum I have used the buy and sell area to purchase all of my engraving tools. I have bought 2 Lindsay gravers a classic and a artisan as well as a Magna graver. None of the gravers that came with any of the units would cut brass silver nor steel. Some had templates and some had dual angle set ups. 3 future engravers failed to learn how to sharpen couldn't master the tooling. It wasn't that they were dull or that they had busted points. they were poorly formed.

 

[Willem Parel]

At the start of this topic it was to find out the reason why the newbe's are struggling and maybe find an answer to that, it ends up in they are lazy and they are only in for short cuts.
I think these are two different subjects, you can be very serious in studying and still want an answer for your struggle to make it a little easyer where it can.
And you can be easy going and think it will sink in spontanious in no time.
But these are different attitudes and I thougt it was about serious studying and try to find the best way to achieve your goal no matter what time it takes.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Bram the philosophy of this watchmaker on how to master any craft, sure it is true. However I could find out if he went to school learning how to make a watch.
The point I tried to make here is that one can be his own teacher or be guided by a teacher. Both work. But if one wants to reach the top of the craft he want to learn, there is one condition, I call it "bitten by the virus"
That doesn’t mean everyone must or want to reach that level.
There is nothing wrong when one want to make a living by only hand engraving roman script on the inside of wedding rings or doing some flare cutting to decorate jewelry only.
Some say you only become master engraver when you can engrave a gun, I don’t agree on that.
If that would be true, every master goldsmith should be able to make a watch, as that is the top of goldsmitting in my opinion.
A good teacher should be able to teach you roman lettering and how to sharpen your graver in just a few months. Idem on scroll engraving and flare cutting.
If one want to master all of it, even a lifetime isn’t enough.

So if one it bitten by the engraving virus, one should be able to make a nice engraving within a few weeks / months. If not there could be several reasons, one of it in my opinion is not knowing where to start. In other words, chaos.
If you start teaching a newbie by drawing a scroll and leaf and how to connect them, that person will be able to engrave something he never thought he could do. And that is what I call the quick start manual.
If you aren’t able to see the trees in the forest quick enough, you will get frustrated instead of learning the craft and you will have your tools for sale.

About teaching, me and my wife we raised 5 children and of course they went to school. My youngest son failed during his examine French. Not only he but more than 50% of the students.
You can say that 50% of the students where stupid, or you could say the teacher couldn’t teach.
My son had to do his examine over at the start of a new school year and he succeeded perfectly. That just because I teach him during summer holiday, only a few hours not spending time on all the exceptions of conjugate. I just created clearness within the chaos and I was able to write a French learning course on a half A4 page.
My son after that was the best French student for many years to come.

That said, perhaps myself I will write that quick start engraving manual on one A4 page and have it tested by “Jan met de pet” to see if it works.

arnaud

 

[Willem Parel]

Good writing Arnaud, I think most of the newbes are willing to step into this journey of engraving even when they have to take the rough road.
But there is nothing wrong to seek for the spots where the road is the smoothest.
I volunteer for the first " Jan met de pet" ...student, or should we call it " John with the cap" ....:biggrin: