Why are all newbies struggling with the same problems

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I think it is wise to start this tread because too many newbies who start engraving and scroll design, have the same problems.
Yes, there are so many books, DVD’s and castings that many starters can’t see the trees in the wood.
I started with Ron Smith books, during that time you all advised this one as the best to start with.
Now we have Sams DVD, we have Lee Griffith’s book and DVD, Marcus just released his book and DVD and we have the older books, we have PDF books, FEGA is selling castings and so on.

And still, most newbies keep struggling with the same problems. So I was wondering why?
To me the answer is that all these books, even when they start with the fundamentals , they are too complex to understand the basics.
The castings that FEGA sells and who are an advice to start studying, they only show advanced engravings from Masters best work.
In my opinion, an beginner just has to learn 1 scroll and 1 or 2 basic leave structures.
No interweaving, no folds.
As that probably is more than enough to start with and making a nice engraving. Designs like that are easy to understand.
Shading is probably the most hard skill to learn, ask Willem and Caty, so if you start shading that one basic leaf and scroll, once one masters that he/she is ready for the next step.
So my point is, there is much too much excellent information, but not the information where to start with.

arnaud

 

[Southern Custom]

Good one Arnaud. I think it has to do with a couple of things. You said it best in your reply to Willems Sketch thread. They eye only sees what it's ready to see. Ten years ago I could have drawn a small piece and compared it to some well done work, said not perfect but darn close to the same. It's only now that I can look back and wonder what on earth was I thinking. This is one of the pitfalls.
Another piece of the puzzle is this forum and the internet. We have access to more high end engraving than ever, blown up larger than life and therefore think our work must meet that standard or don't bother cutting.
I started cutting again after I looked at some really well executed pieces that were done with only a few elements, and done without the aid of a microscope. I realized that I didn't have to be Winston Churchill to produce something beautiful. Maybe my time will come. Until then I have to work within my ability and keep the rest to paper, adding bits and pieces as they are perfected with a pencil.
I think it's best to learn first from simple work that has stood the test of time.
Good topic for me given my little screw up last week.
Layne

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Layne, I think we both agreed each other well. You said it a bit better, so I'm happy already one person understands the why.

To make it easier for newbies to start, "a quick start manual" is needed. And not a manual you and I understand, but a manual that everyone instantly understands.
For instants, we talk about scroll and curves and shading lines, if you ask your plumber what those words mean, ..... yes no idea will be the answer.

I didn't start with Lee Griffith's book and DVD, but he comes close to the basics. I used that one teaching Lola and Jeroen, and still all in the book is so easy to understand for me, it isn't all of it for a newbie.
I understand why a book needs more than 10 pages, but it should be the maximum for a quick start manual.

If I may refer to my first project, "pocket knife" in fact that design was quite basic, and still a beauty.

arnaud

 

[Beladran]

My problem is I need to be told do X and Y an this is why you do X an Y.. Once you get that down pat then you can venture off into Z. I have been reluctant to purchase any of these books / videos because I didn't really know how they would be taught. After taking Sam's class I am comfortable with how he teaches an it works for me so I'm going to order his DVD.
I hope that rambling made sense.

 

[Beladran]

"Quick start manual" would be awesome

 

[Gemsetterchris]

I'd say most of the books/DVDs start off as basic as you can possibly get.
The problem is the "newbies" are in too much of a rush to get into the fancy stuff or onto the next stage.
It's dead easy to to read or watch a DVD without any information actually sinking in.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

You have a point there Chris, and yes nothing wrong with slow down.

arnaud

 

[Willem Parel]

So many what´s said here is true ( I would say, all of it), nice idea of you to start a thread like this Arnaud.
By now I know that I tryed to run before I could walk.
And I also noticed that if you are not at that level to understand all the principals of basic scroll drawing I have to go back and start over again studying harder.
Indeed I had the drive to do it all, overlaps, intertwining, twirls and curls etc. etc. but this thread and the comments on my drawing made me aware of the need to go back to the more basic designs (I hope I don´t loose myself again...)
From now on I will choose two leaf modells which I like and will use this types for a long time until I can make a perfect....well lets say a satisfied design and then making the next step.
I admitt that I was tempted by all the nice stuff I saw here and further on the internet and wanted to be able to draw at the same level.
What I experienced is that indeed the offered books are sometimes to much to understand, for example, I already had read the book of Ron Smith ¨Advanced Drawing of Scrolls¨( for many the scroll bible) but back then I didn´t understand most of what was written.
So I studyed the pictueres, bought more books, DVD´s etc. and went on studying.
After the comments (I asked for) on my drawing I picked up again Ron´s book and still it is very confusing to me because it´s so much at one time.
Now I can say that my miserable drawing has opened my eyes and with the realistic and true comments on it I have learned the most of it.
And I hope this thread will learn me more about the path I should walk, thank you all !

 

[DKanger]

The MOST BASIC book you can buy is "the basics of FIREARMS ENGRAVING" by Neil Hartliep. It is the manual of the NRA Gunsmithing Schools program. It concentrates on basic cutting and doesn't even get into cutting scrolls until chapter five. It may be out of print now, but is still available, yet never recommended. It's a textbook for the beginner. About half the book's content is the same as covered in Brian Marshall's basic course. It is oriented to learning how to cut, not how to draw. He didn't write it to sell books or to mark his place for posterity.

The second most basic book is "Engraving Historical Firearms" by John Schippers. It includes both cutting and pattern development.

Both books are written in clear, precise language accompanied by pictures.

 

[pierre]

in fact, it is impossible to have a rapid course, engraving is a technique that requires a lot of study and practice, for example, one of the fundamental bases such as sharpening chisel in itself is already very complicated, think as read-only or vision only a DVD is illusoire.il is true that a lot of equipment that does the work for sharpening, but understand you get there do you actually technique and why sharpening angles?
the same human transmition if it transmits sometimes contradictory information is the only one that can really be effective.
At school of Liege, after three years of study, we can only give the basics of the technique without. later, it is only the students' ability to adapt to life that will make him a real engraver

 

[Lane]

Us newbies don't want to put in the hours or years of practice to be good.

So we show our works here and everyone knocks our feet out from underneath us, and rightly so.

The next step, and it is because most of us aren't artists, is to copy others works. We possibly use vector programs to Change a leaf here or there, to make it our own...

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Basic engraving ,

Beginning Engraving by Lynton McKenzie, from brownells.
The Art of Engraving, by James B.Meeks, also from Brownells.

Seems these resources have been thrown to the scrap yards,along with the hammer & chisel........

michael

 

[Southtexas]

Not all newbies are alike. If you notice my join date you might realize that some of us put in the time to learn and practice before even really getting started. And one thing I've learned so far is that patience is one virtue an engraver really requires. I do have computer graphics programs, but following Meek's advice I draw by hand every chance I get. And often no more than the backbones. Trying to get to Carnegie hall... practice, practice, practice...

 

[BrianPowley]

Engraving is basically tracing a drawn line with a chisel.
With pneumatics, mastering control of the tool is actually the easy part. We rotate the work under the chisel---same as a metal lathe,to a degree. You're really only cutting a straight line...so practice straight lines and learn to control the depth to make even cuts. Once you get those lines down to second nature, it's a matter of learning hand/eye coordination to produce smooth arcs and circles.
Knowing when your graver needs re-sharpened seems to be another bugaboo for beginners. Many try to engrave with a dull point.
If you ask any gun-cutter "out there", you'll learn the old POWERHONE never gets very cold.

 

[pierre]

Lane, a gun engraver is primarily a craftsman who must master a technique, not an artist, most of the prints from the 15th to the 18th century were designed by an artist and engraved by an engraver can be read in the Print FREQUENTLY INV (inventore, the artist) and SCP (sculptore the engraver)
Here in Liège, we learn the technique of hammer and chisel sharpening by hand without any machine.
our only mission is to transmit a tradition.
If Us Newbies don't want to put hours or years of practice to be good it's not a problem for me.

 

[zzcutter]

All that is needed for scroll design is lee Griffith's book and cd on scroll design and layout.
We are all very lucky to have so much info and people willing to spread there knowledge today in this
field.

 

[Caty Blom]

Hello Arnaud, and all the other forum members
Thank you very much for making this topic, this is finally clear how difficult it is for beginners to make a good drawing After I had seen on the white chinese movie of yours I suddenly realized what I was missing. Fisisualisatie, seeing and doing in your recording of how and what happened. From the books and DVDs I always learn some pieces, but not close to complete. A whole For this I use the Victorian Scroll designs books, which I have recommended the forum. This means that I sometimes spend hours sitting bald honor and study a leaf shape or lines of a drawing. Nevertheless, you still miss the hand of a master, and unfortunately we have to be here for ourselves, with all welcome help from the forum members.
The contacts and comments on our drawings from other forum members and large engravers have we actually learned the most. Everyone thank you for that, and I keep practicing until I the knack, it's a nice profession in which I find much relaxation. greetings Caty.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hey, if it was easy………..then it wouldn't be a skill. It would be just like waking up in the morning. Anyone could do it.

There are two sides to the art of engraving. The technical side which is the cutting, sharpening etc. Then the artistic side which is the design side of things.

The technical side is just a matter of theory, application, practice and perseverance. It doesn't matter if it's hammer and chisel, push graver or pneumatic. Pneumatic is just a hammer and chisel in your hand. Nothing more, nothing less. Each has a different technique for using the tools. Same with sharpening. Power hone, sharpening fixture, hand sharpening etc etc. It's a matter of learning the angles, the theory behind it and off you go with a bit of practice.

The simplest and hardest tool you can ever buy or learn to use is the pencil, and yet so many people just can't, or don't want to get to grips with it. They want to leap into computer programs and skip the one fundamental skill that will help them the most. That is eye and hand coordination combined with muscle memory.

All the information you need is out there. You just have to actually be receptive to it. Not flick through the pages or casually watch the DVD. You have to observe, practice, make your mistakes, learn from them and understand what works and what doesn't and why. This doesn't happen overnight. Ask any apprentice in any trade and they will tell you that.

The artistic side is a lot harder as it involves a lot of concepts that have to be learned and fully understood. This takes years. Light, shadow, texture, muscle formation, colour theory, composition, etc etc. Shading lines on a leaf or scroll are not just thin lines for the sake of it. They give light, shadow, texture and depth to an engraving. They can be complex or simple. That is the part you need to understand and yet there is a reluctance to comprehend this. The cut lines (or dots) are just the method of achieving these concepts………..the best way you can learn these things is with a pencil.

All the whinging and whining about books being too advanced or not enough information is just pure nonsense. We have enough resource material out there to sink a battleship and then some. Talk to the likes of Sam Welch, Marty Rabeno and any of the other old hands. When they started out there was nothing. When they first got into engraving the best they could hope for was some really grainy black and white photos in gun magazines published once a year. When the Meek's book came along it was like Mana from heaven. …………….And look at their work today. It's just fabulous!!!

If you are really lucky you will have some training at a school like Liege which will give you some really great grounding. Or work with a Master Engraver in a factory or something similar. Perhaps take a class if you can. But the rest of us are pretty much self taught with a lot of help and guidance from our friends, books, videos, castings and all the other resource material out there.

When we look at the works of professional world class engravers we have to remember they have devoted thousands of hours to get to that point. They all started like the rest of us, not knowing a thing, picking up a tool and getting on with it.

Things that you need to be good at engraving………..or anything else in life.

Passion
Perseverance
Patience
Practice
Inspiration.
Observation. Observe, apply, observe,apply etc etc.
Develop a sense of good and bad design. This comes with observation.
Be your own worst critic. If you are not happy with something then fix it or start again.
Willingness to learn and listen.
Seek advise…..and most importantly, act on that advise.
Learn from your mistakes as you will make plenty of them.
Learn to draw. Start simple and work your way upwards.
Buy whatever you need to get the job done. Trouble sharpening? Then buy a sharpening jig of some sort.
Don't be penny wise and pound stupid…….buy proper tools from the start.
Relax. There will always be someone better or worse than you.
Never give up, no matter how frustrated you get.

Popular excuses that will defeat you every time.

I have no money……..then find some. We've all been broke.
Kids……………………so what. We've all had them.
I can't draw…………..Then you have shot yourself in the foot before the race has started. Take up golf.
I don't have time to practice…….Then get out of bed an hour earlier or take up macrame as a hobby.
DIY Tool makers………………Don't waste valuable engraving time making tools that are cheap to buy and readily available. Do you want to be an engraver or tool maker??
I have no artistic talent…………then you don't.
I've been practicing for two weeks and can't cut or draw a scroll properly………..Really!!!
I know nothing but trying to develop my own style. Translated that means generally you are trying to justify a crap design…………don't even go there. Learn the basics and get good at them. Your style will develop naturally.

All sounds a bit harsh I know……….but you are the only one that can get yourself over the finish line. Nobody else can do it for you.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Dale Hatfield]

Basic scroll shading for traditional scrolls by Ray Cover online purchase on Lindsay forum
I found this lesson to have more info for more me than the pile of books and videos. Anyone can write a book or record a video but that doesn't mean that the point gets across for everyone.

 

[Southern Custom]

Well stated Andrew.
I learned most of those lessons the hard way. 10 years of engraving off and on and I feel like I've only just started to grasp this thing in the last year.
Part of the reason for that length of time was my own fault. I'm hardheaded. The biggest part was simply because engraving is extremely difficult to learn not to mention master. Especially alone.
Beginners have more resources than ever. And less patience than ever.
It was a long 10 years and I can finally see the forest through the trees. But only just. It took a long time to become comfortable with the process and to accept it for what it was.
Oh, and Pierre. Take a look at any of Mr. Biggs work or the gun Martens just posted and it would be hard to say that they are simply craftsman and not artists.
I have an old friend who makes his living tattooing. He couldn't draw a smiley face if he had to. But knowing this, he says "I'm a Tattooist, not a Tattoo Artist". (And a very talented "Tattooist" at that) I think there is room for both in these similar trades.
Layne