Which Vector Graphics Program is recommended

[Willem Parel]

Arnaud, I think the guy you are talking about is D.H.:big grin:. (am I right??)
We decided (with three of us)to do demonstrations next year in Schoonhoven with POWERTOOLS.
There is every year a market in Schoonhoven called "Zilverdag" and we have planned to show up there.
Schoonhoven is "" the place to be" in Holland as in comes to goldsmithing,engraving etc so we will have a nice stage I think.
And who know's , perhaps the teacher will be there as well....
Willem

 

[spank7357]

Having taught engineering at the college level we commonly found that our best CAD (computer aided drafting) students were those that were experienced in drafting on paper before they went on to electronic media. The same can be said about our CNC (computer numerical control) machinists. They needed to learn to be a machinist in the old way before going on to computer control. We found this to be true in Robotics as the students needed to understand material handling, quality control and so forth before moving to modern technologies. The more they knew of the old way the better and quicker they bridged to computer based technology. That being said, once they did get to that level they ultimately became better and faster at their craft. my2cents

 

[Sam]

Well, I'm all about technology and saving time and getting things done faster. I'm pretty proficient with Illustrator but I guess I'm just faster with a pencil. Then again the computer illustrations I do that are highly detailed take considerably longer than just doing an outline as opposed to varying the widths of cuts, shading, etc. That being the case, I can outline relatively quickly. The other stuff really consumes time to make it look like a finished work. I guess I should have stated that in my previous post.

I've had many students tell me that they've spent $$$$ on software only to discover it wasn't as easy as they expected, so I caution folks that they'll get out of it only what they're willing and able to put into learning the software and practicing diligently...just like engraving.

A class like you're teaching should shorten the learning curve, Arnaud. I should probably take it as there's no doubt I still have a lot to learn.

Cheers / ~Sam

 

[Willem Parel]

Question to Sam, I was wondering how in general you come to your final design on the metal.
Do you draw your design first on paper or directly on the metal.
The vectorway look so nice to me because you get a nice layout thats printable and tranferable.
I dont know how to get my pencildrawing sharp enough for transfer.
What's the secret in these.
Willem

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Willem

I can't answer for Sam but here are a couple of ways to help you out.

The first is to scan your pencil drawing into the computer at a high resolution.......about 600dpi. Then in Photoshop or a similar program, create another layer and draw over the top of it (like electronic tracing paper) then save that layer, reduce size and print to whatever your preferred transfer method is.

The second works just as well and all you need is a decent Photoshop type program (there are a lot of cheap ones that work well for this) And that is trace your pencil design using tracing paper and a black pen. (Stabilo or Rotorring work really well, but make sure you use a steel nib and not a felt one. The steel works better and the felt crushes) Then scan at 600 dpi, resize and print to however you like to transfer.

The thing to remember about this is that you don't need a deadly accurate transfer. Obviously as accurate as you can is better......but so long as you can get a decent design on the metal then scribe in any adjustments and then cut. The tracing paper option isn't high tech but it works well.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[ahenson]

As for the original question, you should try Aviary.com -- it has free online software that you can use that is very similar to Adobe products. As long as you have internet access, you can use it.

This would be a good program for you to begin learning the basics of vectors. They even have demos on how to use the software. Good luck.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

If you have a student or a teacher in the family (or a good friend that is one) you can get the whole $1299.99 Adobe Creative Suite 5 which includes Illustrator CS5, PhotoShop CS5, InDesign CS5, Acrobat 9 Pro, Bridge CS5, and Device Central CS5 all for $199.95:

Adobe Creative Suite 5 Design Standard - Win

I think my son (who is going for his Master's degree) decided he needed this software today. :yes

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hey Dakota

Yes, that software is essential for anyone doing a degree in "the holistic cultural beliefs of sub Pacific indigenous tribes as they relate to 8th century theories of natural medicines"


Cheers
Andrew

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

Hey Dakota

Yes, that software is essential for anyone doing a degree in "the holistic cultural beliefs of sub Pacific indigenous tribes as they relate to 8th century theories of natural medicines"


Cheers
Andrew

Or even Basket Weaving 101 perhaps?

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Hi Willem

I can't answer for Sam but here are a couple of ways to help you out.

The first is to scan your pencil drawing into the computer at a high resolution.......about 600dpi. Then in Photoshop or a similar program, create another layer and draw over the top of it (like electronic tracing paper) then save that layer, reduce size and print to whatever your preferred transfer method is.
Cheers
Andrew

Andrew, I don’t agree on this, that works but it is not smart to do it that way.
I also think this a major mistake about computer design

There are two kind of picture files, one is a pixel one, the other is vector.
A pixel is like when you make a digital photo these when you zoom in are squares.
A vector, not matter the magnification it is a curve of a particular wide.
When you draw a pixel lined curve, the outside of the line will have lighter dots (squares) to make it smooth for our eyes. A vector curve is a more crispy curved line, no matter its scaling.

A laser printer (toner) is not able to print a JPG line of 0,05mm on 300dpi. Not even can you see it on real size on your screen as there are not enough pixels on your screen for that.

A laser printer (toner) is able to print a vector line of the same size (300dpi) and you can transfer it.

Of course a inkjet printer is able to print more detailed JPG design, as it uses more colours but the lines will never be crispy like a vector print.

When you draw pixels in Photoshop or every other photo software, it is like airbrush. Yes you could higher the resolution and only draw black pixels in Photoshop, but then the design lines does not show smooth.

I will put a video blog on Chris website to illustrate this. Printing a 23mmx23mm with vector and pixels on a toner printer.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Willem, the best way to use computer software to transfer a pencil design to on object for engraving is making a pencil design at least X2 It does not have to look that perfect.
Scan this design at 300 dpi but 100% real size.
Open that in Illustrator on one layer. Lock that layer and draw (trace) with you vector pencil in red colour. In between you can hide the scanned layer quickly to see if your lines are smooth. You can also smooth the curves quite fast with the smoothing tool as they are editable lines, not pixels.
Once you have traced your pencil design, hide the design that is on the pencil design layer and make corrections.

If you have traced the lines with a 0,2mm pencil, after that you can select all lines quickly and make them 0,05mm

Print these lines like you are used to for transfer.

And remember, on a pencil line with a 0,3mm you can draw (trace) at least 4 lines in the same direction when you do it with vectors, and you will be able to print and transfer them at 300dpi :big grin:

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

demo

To illustrate my previous answer, I show you some “print screens” of pencil and vector designs.
And of course I can’t show a vector at 300dpi in your browser, because it is no matter your settings only 75dpi.
That is why I show it bigger of course, so I can’t show it real size, I can only show the pencil 0,3mm draw and the vector curves at the same time to have a reference in size.

This is the pencil design I made double size, original it is 25mm, the size I engaraved it. Drawing it at real size is stupid, you should agree. I used a 0,3 mm pencil to design this.
Now I can’t see another way to transfer it on real size than tracing it into a vector design.
This is scaled to real size but I use magnification so you won't need your eyeglasses. :big grin:

This example shows maginified the tracing at real size as I scaled the scanned X2 design and scaled it to 25mm, traced with a vector pencil of 0,05 mm
You see I should have fine tuned it even more, as there are some curves that don't start at the curve where they should start, This is not imortant because this is a magnification X? I don't know. Wen drawing I switch constant between real size and X?

This one I made the vector lines even less wide, they are now 0,01mm at real size nad still printable. I only used the magnification tool within Illustrator to do the vector design. Sure I had to use that to make the tracing.
And a toner printer is able to print that and I can transfer that quite easy.

This is a magnification using the Illustrator magnification tool. Its real size is still 25mm and sure I could fine tune it even more, but why?
I’m able to print this with a 100$ toner printer and transfer it on my working object.

This is real size, the lines now are 0,05mm wide. It is printable with a toner printer at life size and can easily be transferred.
It is your screen that perhaps wont show it at 300dpin but sure you can print it within Illustrator at real size.

I know this technique rocks, sure for novices.
And all of you who are making designs and make engravings for more than 20 years, probably you have forgotten how much time you spend to learn drawing a scroll.
You say now that a pencil is much faster and learning vector design takes more time, you are wrong. That because you are faster with a pencil after using it for 20 years and have to spend time to learn it with vectors. But… a novice who has to learn it all, nothing is fast!

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Oh yeah.....

I forgot to mention that another way is to scale the pencil drawing down on a computer or photocopier......... and use an acetate transfer. That works just as well as anything else and is low tech as you can get other than scribing directly onto the metal.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Sam]

Question to Sam, I was wondering how in general you come to your final design on the metal.
Do you draw your design first on paper or directly on the metal.
The vectorway look so nice to me because you get a nice layout thats printable and tranferable.
I dont know how to get my pencildrawing sharp enough for transfer.
What's the secret in these.
Willem

Willem: 99.9% of the time I draw my scrollwork, leaves, etc, directly onto the metal and then engrave. I'm not saying it's the best way...it's just the way I do it. I have done pencil drawings in the past, transferred them, and that works great, too. Use whatever method works for you. For me it's most comfortable and fastest to draw directly onto the metal.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Oh yeah.....

I forgot to mention that another way is to scale the pencil drawing down on a computer or photocopier......... and use an acetate transfer. That works just as well as anything else and is low tech as you can get other than scribing directly onto the metal.

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew, some people still uses the fax transfer, mine is on the Garbage field for a long time. If one want to send me a fax, not possible anymore. There are better ways to send images.

And I really don’t understand why you disagree with all I bring into this tread. I know your point of view about pencil, but I never said one should not use a pencil.
To me you are always trying to discourage the use of computer designs, you are a big fan of the pencil. Yes, I use it al the time. But not for fine tuning!

There are lots of members here that share my way making designs and who would like to learn my way I do it. Is that wrong?
Sure everyone who thinks he can not draw with a pencil, is able to learn that, and in every person there is a artist hided. But does it mater what medium one uses?
And I agree that a pencil design looks more artistic than a traced vector design, … but are we engravers or pencil drawers?
So at the end, in my opinion, it is about the cuts (engraving)
In that purpose, does it matter if one draw a design with his finger in the sand to make a plan (design) for engraving or uses a wonderful vector software?
Isn’t the engraved design that counts?

You learned me my start designing scrolls, I always will remember and own you your help on “my pocket knifeâ€￾.And yes, I did it with a pencil and I still have a very good pencil I use every day. Everyday I make designs, now working on lots of mm designs at the same time, and it works for me.

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

I am not saying computer design is wrong or even a bad way of doing things. I use mine all the time and so do a lot of other engravers..

To each his own. In other words whatever works, then do it as there are many different ways of doing things. However I put one proviso on that. If you don't know what you are doing with a pencil..........then with a computer you will end up with exactly the same results.

I wish you well with your classes and I expect you will get a very good response to them. And so you should as you have valuable skills to pass onto others.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[hybridfiat]

Xara is a bargain when it comes to vector drawing programs and it will do way more then you need.
http://www.xara.com/default.asp

I don't think there is anything wrong with using digital means to draw a pattern, the advantage is you can draw it big, you can edit without spending hours tracing designs. Once you get it finished you get it down to the size you want without loss of detail.

Peter

Hi Peter, can you help me with this program please. Ive downloaded the trial and cant fing a scroll/spiral function. Any ideas?
Thanks for any help you can give
Steve

 

[Phil Coggan]

As I understood Roland is using Photoshop, in my opinion it works for layout on scenes, also Phil Cogan is using that, but not the perfect software for pencil design.

arnaud

Hi Arnaud,
Yes I use PS in fact I have two tutotials somewhere in these forums, as you mention I use it for scenes ie. reducing animals etc and positioning them, it's quick.

As for creating scrolls, well it's not the right software for it, I would rather draw scrolls freehand, there is more life to it that way. Scrolls done with softare are, IMO too machanical.

Phil

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Hi Arnaud,
Yes I use PS in fact I have two tutotials somewhere in these forums, as you mention I use it for scenes ie. reducing animals etc and positioning them, it's quick.

As for creating scrolls, well it's not the right software for it, I would rather draw scrolls freehand, there is more life to it that way. Scrolls done with softare are, IMO too machanical.

Phil

Yes Phil, I agree about drawing scrolls freehand with a pencil is best and vector designed scrolls look more mechanical. But…. The final purpose (goal) making a design is the engraved object. So why would a vector design once engraved look more mechanical that a engraved pencil design?

My first bracelet I draw it all just using vector design. Does the bracelet show that the design was made on computer?
And in a similar way, if one draw a scene with a pencil at the right perspective he can use it for Bulino work. The way you do it using Photoshop there is no mistake about perspective and proportions of animals in a scene. So that is why probably you are using this, not saying you can’t draw the scene by hand, it is just faster and more accurate starting with a photo.
And no matter how you build up the scene, you have to cut it in metal, so it will always be a hand made design.

Yes I saw your tutorial on that and I liked it.

arnaud

 

[Phil Coggan]

Arnaud,

There is a tendancy when using vector etc to copy and paste the same scrolls and leaves, if the cutting is acurate then all your doing is drawing in steel, the engraving should look exactly as the drawing, adding angled cuts will vary this somewhat.

I'm not knocking these programs, they do a good job with what they do and they have their place.

Phil