Which Vector Graphics Program is recommended

[ErichM]

I've looked at several vector graphics programs priced everywhere from free to hundreds of dollars. I'm sure the higher end programs are better but I'm also sure that they probably have a lot more features than what I would need to design and work with engraving designs (plus I can't afford 100's of dollars.)

I would be operating off of a Mac system.

I looked at "Vector Designer" for Mac and it is easy enough to use and it's price is under $100 so it looks good from that standpoint, but it may be too basic as I'm playing with the trial version and haven't yet found an easy way to create spirals.

Anyone have any recommendations for an acceptable program that

1) works well on an Imac
2) doesn't have a learning curve of a year to become functional
3) has the minimum necessary functions to create scrollwork and other engraving related graphics
4) is priced near $100 or less

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Erich

A pencil........version one.

They have never bothered updating it as the original works so well.

It works on any media.
You can use it straight out of the box and doesn't need any instructions.
Can create beautiful scrolls and all necessary elements for good design.
Priced around $1



Cheers
Andrew

 

[Mike Dubber]

Spirals?

I agree with Andrew - and Andrew definately knows his way around a computer and graphics stuff.

I would also add that you should supplement your new pencil with Ron Smith's Drawing and Understanding Scroll Design. Then grab a thick pad drawing paper and spend some quality time creating scrolls:beat up:

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I don’t agree with Andrew on this. :big grin: I’m doing some classes on vector designs right now. Best advise to do vector designs is use Adobe Illustrator as it is the standard.

And sure one can use a pencil to start with a sort of sketch, and all those that still uses pencil to make a ”sort of plan” what they will use for engraving, if it works for you why changing?
But, in my opinion same for the pushing help and the use of a scope to engrave, it is not necessary but it has taken the bar for engravings to higher level.
Same with vector designs. By using that in your planning making designs, shows much better the final engraved result and even in less time.
Most important is the “fine tuning” next morning after you finished a design, mostly a design looks finished until next day. You realise some details could look better an other way. Then you have to start all over with your design while in a vector design it works more accurate to make changes in less time


Now most of the highly skilled engravers will make those corrections while cutting. In a way they don’t follow the design they planned. However, making the best detailed design before starting any cuts, will always show a better design once it is cut.
This technique exists, so I don’t see why not using it.
And I’m sure if I show at those that are not familiar with vector designs how I do those these, they would like to learn it.

Adobe Illustrator as it was first designed for a Mac and a cheap Wacom tablet.
Yes it will cost you more than 100 dollar.

arnaud

 

[ErichM]

I've got Advanced Scrolls By Ron Smith on the way now. Ordered it a few days back. And I see the reasons for going at it freehand (not the least of which is cost). I just thought that the vector programs would help getting the spirals as close to perfect as possible and also allow you to rescale those drawings that were good but just a little off in their size or needed minor tweaking in one area or another.

I do plan to spend a good deal of my time drawing the good old fashioned way at least to start.

I do appreciate the advice

 

[Jim Sackett]

1. I start with a #2 soft pencil, white paper and an eraser. When I get a good idea of how my design will look I erase as much of the smudge marks as I can. 'These smudges are caused by the many erasing I do to get everything just right. If there are to many I'll trace the parts I want for the next step. My designs are usually 2 to 4 times the size I need for the piece.
2. I scan it into my computer and use my simple Microsoft Draw program to redraw it. This program comes installed with most Microsoft systems or is available for free download. It works well for me. And it don't leave no smudges. When the design is all cleaned up I make a copy in the computer and resize to the piece it is going on. Might make some more adjustments and I show my customer, they may have some suggestions.
3. OK the design is sized & OKed by customer, its time to do the engraving.
Check out the many threads listed here on transferring designs unto the piece. Good Luck!
Jim Sackett

ps After reading all of your post I would think The Mac Program would do. If it has the function to draw and control a curve you can draw scrolls!

 

[Cloudy]

ngraver sells scroll templates- do a great job fitting finished spaces
http://www.ngraver.com/layout.htm

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

ngraver sells scroll templates- do a great job fitting finished spaces
http://www.ngraver.com/layout.htm

The trouble with those Ngraver scroll templates is that the spiral isn't quite right. They don't follow the Golden Mean and don't widen out at the proper rate. As I've found, if the backbone isn't right no matter how you decorate it the scroll just won't look right.

The scroll templates that GRS sells in their kit are even worse and more difficult to use.

There just isn't anything currently on the market that will give the proper look. I'd thought of having a proper Golden Mean spiral template made but I would have to purchase 500 of them. After conferring with Rex Pederson about it... he seemed to think that it would end up being a lifetime supply and they would be hard to sell besides that. So, I dropped the idea.

I think drawing the backbones in Illustrator is probably the wave of the future. It will be possible to make and edit your designs with more accuracy in less time.

Just my humble opinion...

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I agree with Cloudy. The scroll templates are a wonderful thing to have........and they're cheap. A great aid for a beginner..............as you get better drawing freehand with a pencil you'll eventually stop using them.

Another useful aid is tracing paper......... if your design gets to the stage that it's messy, then simply trace over it tweaking as you go.

Another really useful drawing aid is the good old fashioned lightbox. The lightbox I have is free. It's called the kitchen window ...........and at night it's a blank computer screen (something like a blank document in "Word" works well for a light source

I couldn't encourage you strong enough to get use to pencil and paper. It will help you understand what you are doing a lot more....plus it will aid you in drawing/tweaking straight onto the metal because you will have to do that from time to time. It will also develop and refine your eye/hand coordination skills that are essential for the work. The problem with computer work is you are only as good as you can operate the computer and manipulate the lines with a mouse/tablet. If you have to learn how to do that (and it takes quite a steep learning curve) then you may as well learn how to draw with a pencil.

Don't get me wrong. There is a place for a computer. Especially around transferring designs onto the metal (but it's not necessary as there are cheaper and just as effective ways) Building up scene work is another where you want to place different elements from different sources to build up the scene........or manipulating existing scenes.

But start at the beginning. Learn to draw one good scroll and then leaves both inside and outside. Then attach another scroll to that............ and so on.

These things will be of far more value to you than any vector art program.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Christopher Malouf]

The REAL trouble with the NGraveR templates is that all the scrolls go to the left and the kit doesn't come with a second template for scrolls that go right ...

 

[Andrew Biggs]

It's always interesting reading how others perceive things. I like the scroll templates............. and Dakota doesn't. So there is never any definitive answer on any of this stuff. But yes, they do have to be used with a little artistic license.

Dakota...........If you want to make your own it should be simple enough to give the file to a sign company that has a router and they could make you up a couple of cheap "see through" plastic ones for cheap enough.

I hate the idea of this type of work being done in Illustrator in the future. There is a laziness with computers that is inevitable. It's called cut and paste. What happens is the scroll is made up, then simply rotated and sized to suit and then that scroll is used all over the entire design and then onto the next one. And of course if there is a mistake in it, like fish hook scrolls, then that mistake is repeated all over the design...........and it develops the look of computer generated clip art that has no human or natural character. There is no fare to it.

Remember the old theatre signs and Christmas windows we all used to see. All done by highly talented sign painters with a brush and paint............. and there was a vibrancy and life to the work, a real energy. Now it's all just sterile computer generated graphics that look the same from one billboard to the next, and one country to the next.

That's my rant for the day..........I had better go and lay down as I feel an attack of the vapors coming on

Cheers
Andrew

P.S. Sorry I can't really answer your original question Erich. I've strayed a bit off topic.

 

[diandwill]

Andrew,

My late Aunt Alma always carried a couple 'miniatures' with her, usually Gin or Vodka. Whenever she felt the vapors coming on, a good stiff drink would solve that problem...and help with the laying down later. I like a good beer more, but they aren't as easy to carry and are better chilled.

I have the GRS Scroll kit, and used it for the better part of a week. It seemed too cut and dried. I could do better with a pencil, and with feeling.

Will

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Well, another interesting thread, I do agree that drawing is a good thing but I have to say that I have watched Arnaud using illustrator to build a design. It's amazing. It's not cookie cutter copy and paste. Your able to shrink proportion and manipulate the scrolls and leaf structures at the speed of light. If you want to try moving a leaf structure or scroll he makes it look easy. Imagine how many times you drew a design and then traced and retraced it to move or change the position of a scroll or leaf. Here you can save the different designs in layers and change them back and forth. I'm sold and will be ordering the program i already have a wacom tablet.

I think that an open mind should be used. It's not so much about replacing drawing as it is about saving time and being more accurate.

Not that long ago the same debates were being made about hand push and hammer and chisel vs. power assisted. they also used to say that the car wouldn't replace the horse.

I just don't understand why some lines are drawn in the sand and others are not. How many people are using photoshop for game scenes now. How many use a power hone and a fixture to sharpen? why are these accepted and others are not.

Before you know it we will be able to teach people anywhere in the world through your computer live and in real time . Wait! that already exists.

I agree drawing is good and I would never tell someone needs not too. I teach design and we draw. It is important and I won't stop doing that. But I will take it to a point where I can then scan it in and save many hours tweaking and developing more designs from the original hand drawn one.

Chris

 

[Peter_M]

Xara is a bargain when it comes to vector drawing programs and it will do way more then you need.
http://www.xara.com/default.asp

I don't think there is anything wrong with using digital means to draw a pattern, the advantage is you can draw it big, you can edit without spending hours tracing designs. Once you get it finished you get it down to the size you want without loss of detail.

Peter

 

[monk]

i must take andrew to task here. my .3 mechanical pencil cost me a lousy 12 bucks. the.5 was eleven dollars. seriously, the software stuff is a magical timesaver, but never a substitute for drawing skill. if you cant draw well, for one thing, you wont really have a proper knowledge of scroll sizing, placement, and whatnot. the computer will allow one to do perfect shapes in a completely chaotic arrangement.

 

[tbear]

Erich,
Go to the following web site. It is called Ink Scape and it is free.
http://inkscape.org/

 

[rolandbaptiste]

If that interesting you I just finish a tutorial to learn how you can draw a drawing project
It is here: http://www.EngravingLessons.com/On-Demand%20Engraving%20Tutorials.htm

 

[capece rocco]

the best for me is Adobe illustrator,look the fine result

 

[rolandbaptiste]

For me you lose the hand made touch with illustrator.
I prefer see the spirit of the author.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I agree with Roland about “the spirit of the author” in a design. But that is great only if the design itself would be your work.
But as we are engravers it is the engraving that will show our design. So if we make mechanical curves or by pencil, we will cut them freehand anyway.

So the design in my opinion is only to have a “sort of plan” before starting cuts
Even when we will not transfer the design but draw it directly on the metal under the scope we need a plan. Only having the designs planned we are able to do the best layout on more complex designs. So if done with a pencil and paper or vectors, who cares?

Another thing, some of you are using templates, why? Will that show more character in a design? I have my vector templates and I invent some myself while drawing.
Sure I could make plastic templates using my vector curves, then draw them with a pencil and paper, scan them in and perhaps redraw them on the computer, but all these steps takes more time to have a blueprint of what I will engrave.

And for instance, if you want to draw a border parallel to the shape of a knife or whatever, ok you first use a pencil to trace the outline of the knife. Then you scan it, perhaps and print it big size. Now this is the hard part when you use a pencil, adding this border the same distance all around. Using Illustrator it takes two mouse clicks.
After that you can print it big size and use a pencil or whatever.
What I want to say is that even if you want to draw the design with a pencil, most of you are using a computer to print the outline scaled.
Sure I know how to scale a design using “millimetre paper” but is there someone out there that still does it that way? I think not. As scanner scaling and printing is what we use for that as it is more efficient.

Sure Roland’s design looks great the way he does them, but I guess that he makes the design double size and then scan and scale it. At least that is the way Illustrators worked before there where any computers, that just because there are no pencils or pen that are able to draw a tiny line like we are to cut one.

arnaud