Question: What is the impact of mass produced decoration on gun engraving?

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

John B,thank you! I was originaly replying to the posting by handengraver.Where he was categorizing and defining different disciplines.I was wondering why nobody makes a distinction between power assist and manual(used to be called hand engraving).As hand engraver pointed out,Some one who uses acid,pantograph,etc...cant call it engraving.Isnt it just logical in the evolution of tools and techniques,to give air assist/powered engraving,to make a distinction between manual(used to be hand powered/human powered)and the newer more technologically advanced.instead of adopting the term known by different meaning in the not to distant past.

Why is anyone hesitant to let modern engraving have its own distinct classification?I think it may be for the same reasons people are drawn to the words Master,Professional.Its because these words invoke things in the customers mind,that can be of benefit to the client and the artist.The term hand engraved/hand engraver, has been recently in history been given a broader definition,by most in the trade.

That being said,why is it such a stretch to include some of the other facets of the trades,such as acid(drawn through resist,by hand),pantograph(guided by hand) etc.....etc..into the term hand engraved,or ,even just engraved.

As stated in an earlier post of mine,that why get upset at industry for mis labeling their processes.If we are going to convert a lable(like hand engraved) to now include moden tools and power.

If we in the trade,are unwilling to make distinctions between methods used,why should they.After all,doesnt the end justify the means?

No,i dont frown upon the use of these tools.I may even get some one day.But i will make sure that the customer or viewer,if interested,will understand the differences between manual(hand)and the others,whatever they are,and not just take the liberty to change the historically ingrained definitions of words,to suit my liking.Thats how lines get fuzzy. Thanks again john,God Bless,mike

 

[Roger Bleile]

Mike,

Here are a few points I want to address and then regardless of replies, I have had may say on this topic.

Regarding the James Meek book: It was written in 1973 and though reissued in over 26 reprintings, it has never been updated. It was writen at a time when the GraverMeister was in it's infancy and only the inventor and very few others knew anything about it. Meek's book is recommended because it is one of the very few "How to" references out there. A 21st century book on this subject is badly needed but those who could write such a book are too busy trying to make a living engraving.

For what it is worth, an engraver named John Shippers has written a tremendous "how to" engraving book that features power tools (and about everything you would want to know) but he has been trying for years to get it published. Shippers is an H&C engraver of over 40 years experience. He recently bought an air graver to experiment with. I really hope John's book happens because it is well thought out and illustrated.

Regarding the issue of me "pushing" (as if I were selling contraband) power tools, Andrew and others have stated my case perfectly. I will add this though; I recently spent two days at the CLA show demonstrating engraving. I understand that most of the long rifle builders there only want to enhance their rifles with a little authentic engraving and not become professional engravers. For that reason, I spent most of my time explaining hand tools and sharpening techniques and how to get started with the minimum that will work for most of those folks. I try to consider who I am addressing my remarks to and respond accordingly.

As for starting with manual tools making one a better engraver in the long run, maybe yes and maybe no. I do know that I really struggled to master using the burin in steel for some years, stabbing myself a number of times. It was after I used the GraverMeister for a while that my pushing improved and I could actually do entire scenes and figures in (mild) steel with a burin.

My feeling is that if one lives in Europe or the UK where one can be properly trained or apprenticed with manual tools over a period of years, then that is a great way to go. After several thousand hours of rigid training the new engraver will be able to do anything necessary with traditional tools. That person can later take up power tools if they find value in them as Kurt did.

In the US a person only has one or two week courses available and 95% of those train with power tools. You don't see what age has to do with it but where does a 60 year old man find the ability to drop everything in his life and go to Europe for a few years to learn the archaic way to do engraving.

It can be done. Just ask Joseph. In his 40's he dropped everything and went to Italy. You can read all about it, and more, in his fascinating biography, A Gifted Man. The whole thing was an ordeal to say the least but he had the passion and perseverence to do it. He is a rare person indeed. If you want to learn H&C, take up Joseph's offer to go to his home in Mexico where he will teach you all you can absorb in a short time. Talk about primitive, after moving to Mexico and leaving his tools behind at the Cody Museum, he used a rock for a vise and a sharpened fish hook for a graver. You're the man Joseph

One last thing please. Mike, can you explain your philosophy whereby you are so set on doing all of your work in the most primitive way (I undrestand that part) but you use the most modern contrivance made by man (or maybe the devil ) to glean knowledge and information from others who had to learn most of it before the personal computer was available to the masses. Wouldn't it all fit together better if you got on a horse and rode it to Mexico to learn the old ways from Joseph?

Regardless of the responses, this has been a thought provoking discussion on a topic that, I suppose is endless and has no single, simple answer.

Beam me up Scotty (Pilkington)!!!

 

[pilkguns]

Mike,
my conversion is told in this Thread
http://www.igraver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=618
and actually there some very pertinent comments from other posters in the next couple of pages, so read the whole thread Mike (and others)

Roger,
anytime Buddy!

quote from post 13 in that old thread
the old workd craftsman puts so much more in because they had so much more time to put into it... Like it or not in most cases, it was the majority of their waking hours. People had no 40 hour work weeks, it was literally daylight to dark. Kids were often doing the smaller work that required smaller hands, so all in all, there was much more labor hours per week, per year to 1) learn a highly skilled trade and 2) accomplish beautiful and fanstastic things with skills once acquired.

Lots of areas I could go with this. I love going through the fantastic churches and castles in Europe, and the stonework andwood carving and engraving, and painting everywhere is a feast for the eyes... I think we were talking of Florence earlier.... but a lot of those church commissions, or castle commissions were essentially slave labor, enforced by the threat of eternal damnation in death from the former, or immiment transisition to death by the latter. Yes, those that were at the top of their game prospered, as in any human pursuit, but there was a tremendous base of that pyramid of ceaselessly working souls to support the master of the craft.

Today, where are we? we have so much leisure time, so many things to do that thrill the eye and inspire our brains from TVs, to ipods, fine mueseum, music of any sort at a touch of a button.. What do we a want to do with our time? and there Tom hit the nail so perfectly with his hammer.

"There's nothing like having the right tool for the job. It saves you time. I don't mean simply a faster way to the end, I mean that I just have so much time on this earth to make what I really want to make."
There it is folks, what do you want to do with your time? You have 24 hours today, 8 of which you are sleeping . What about the rest fo the day, what do yuo want to leave for humanity to see. Does anybody really care what bristle style was used to do the Mona Lisa? Yes, the few art historians, but the vast majority of humanity that are going to look at beauty of the object you made and judge worthy or unworthy of continued multiple viewings, they don't care how you did it. Just as long it as it works and does what it is supposed to do, (assuming it is a functional item) and is comely to look it. They really don't care if it was done slow or fast, if one person or 20 worked on it. If they like, they will want to own it, assuming they can afford the price it is offered for.

You as the craftsman/artist have to control the price and to control that you have to control your time. At the beginning you want to be fast enough to sell your work at reasonable price so people will buy it. As you get more famous, and your skills increase, you want to be fast enough and charge enough so that you have enough time and money to accomplish other pursuits that interest you, sometimes related to the first money making skill, sometimes not.

On the other hand, some people do things simply for the joy of doing things.... If your hobby is cutting with a hammer and chisel and it gives you joy to your soul to do that, then do it. I don't mean to tell you not to. Me, I like using a scythe. I can go out and cut grass with an old fashioned sharp scythe and say this is relaxing. Yeah, I could cut it faster with a weedeater, and yes I do sometimes depending on the job, but I enjoy the back and forth motion and quiet swish as the grass is falling. I have doctors and lawyers that are my students that tell me cutting scroll is how they relax. So be it. But the point I was trying to make early was if you want to get reasonably good in a reasonable amount of time, and that is where you are gaining the most pleasure, in having reasonable good work to look at it, then the way to do that is with power engraving. If your greatest joy is in the act of doing a traditional thing in a traditional way, no matter what the final product looks like for a long time then I say do it with a song in your heart and a smile on your lips.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

Regarding the James Meek book: It was written in 1973 and though reissued in over 26 reprintings

FYI: I had to go look at the flyleaf in my copy. Mine was purchased in 1979 (birthday present from my dad) and it was already in the 7th printing at that time.

 

[Leonardo]

Hi there!

I think that has no sense rambling so much about how to define exactly "engraving" or "hand engraving"... the words evolute along with the things so we use them today to call things that used to be quite different in the past.
As an example, Berline, Breack, Buggy, Coupé, Faetón... were all horse driven carriages! but I actually drive a car called a berline... so what? It has no horses!

Perhaps "hand engraved" and "machine engraved" would be just enough to keep the things clear; considering "hand engraved" any engraving done by hand regardless of the tool involved.

I would like to write a lot more but just remember something that has stopped me:
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Groucho Marx.

Just a bit of humor. I am talking about me myself and not trying to offense anybody.

Kurt: Thank you! I am going... I am going... I will show you something soon.

Best regards,
Leonardo.

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Scott,thanks for the link.That was worth the read.Mike

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Roger,removed the offensive statement.I never said you were pushing tools.I said that when newbees come asking how to make tools,and get started on a budget,you seem to discourage that behavior while applauding modern tools,and steering them towards tools they cant afford.Thats all.Nothing more and nothing less.God Bless,mike

 

[Roger Bleile]

Roger,removed the offensive statement..God Bless,mike

I also removed my references to your deleted statement so they won't show up on a web search.

RB

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Roger,thanks.That was a mistake on my part.Never even occured to me that it could come up on a search. Good catch.God Bless,mike

 

[pilkguns]

I also removed my references to your deleted statement so they won't show up on a web search.

RB

Well dang, I wuz thunkin' I might juz put it on next years Engrave-In poster!

 

[canadian]

A worthy subject for a discussion for sure!

As always in the field of art there are 2 schools of thought. There will be those who will settle for the lesser of as we would call it laser, etching or whatever else. However, the connoisseurs, who are still around, will always opt for the real thing - hand engraving.

Case in point: why are some pieces of art command higher price appraisals at the auction houses and the others that appear almost as high quality get lower appraisals?
For one simple reason - because they are of lesser quality. And as long as there are the experts, and unfortunately, those are now fewer and far in between, there will be the need and the market for the real art of engraving. And I have seen plenty of the greatest engravings right here on this site that inspire me greatly. And I am sure they will do the same to anyone who can really "see"!
True art is distinguished from just any art by the feeling that it invokes in the viewer. Often people cannot explain why this happens but it does. And so, rest assured that there will be always those who are moved by the a real great piece of engraving art.

In another one of my incarnations, a bit earlier in my life, in the 70's, my brother and I had an art gallery of antique paintings on Madison Ave. in NY and I have seen that there are always collectors of connoisseurs of art that will pay the price for the high quality art.
So, friends, do not despair and keep on practicing, for there is always a market for exceptional work and I do not for a moment believe that it will ever pass into obsolescence.
Just my 2 cents.

Best to all!

Boris

 

[D.M.]

I am not in a position to discuss such matters. But.

There were, are, and always be: "religious fanatics", "more-or-less faithful people", "atheists", and all possible "in betweens".

Hand, powered, superl aser ultra CNC cut and computer designed. Whatever. There is no right and wrong. There is a diversity.

The same applies to the collectors and customers. The same applies to the dealers, experts, etc.

People are different and they do their own choice, the same as makers do their own. Sometimes there is a merry connection of right customer and right maker. Sometimes not. For one the factory made is good, for some "hand made" only. Is it good or bad? Neither, it is a diversity, it's life.

Should the Guild proclaim that from now on only "that kind" of engraving is a "true" engraving... there will still be enough people doing all possible "other ways".
Should the Guild promote "proper" naming? - Yes. Though the "properness" is still relative.
Should the Guild declare the War? - Well, I personally don't think it is wise.

Something like that...

 

[BrianPowley]

I'm not sure if this thread has made it "full circle" or not but I think I'll be hanging around to see what the impact of mass produced gun decoration is going to look like.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

I'm not sure if this thread has made it "full circle" or not...

It may just be me... but, it's beginning to look like:

or

:big grin:

 

[Marrinan]

The only comment that I am going to make is that I wish some of the shotgun manufactures would leave some clean guns for those of us who can not afford best guns in the white. I think there is a small "niche" market for engravable firearms under $5000-Fred

 

[richard hall]

Fred, my guess they will use the machine to cover all the ranges and prices of guns, I would if I was in charge, just to make it pay for itself. They will have to change their programs, theme wise, as they wouldnt want it to get monotonous,they would need variety , or the customer would grow wary quickly. If the metal was thick enough,it could be milled or surface ground to remove it,then the item could be engraved with something the customer really wants..Would think the company could see that coming,so their programers would do custom orders.