Question: What is the impact of mass produced decoration on gun engraving?

[richard hall]

Well guys its a great thread... There was a time when if someone told me they were planning on selling "bottled water" or that someday we would be paying for "satellite dish" for our televisons, would have called them a LIAR....but, things are changing before our eyes, and we must change with it. As Marcus stated, its the bottom line as far as profits go, and by that, its usually forget the workmanship. It will bite them in the rear in time, but during that time, you wont eat well, you"ll get behind in your car and house payments,and even if you get back to work, you have already lost so much with the loss of income, even your wife up and leaves. I think that there will be work out there, it may not be up to par with the lifestyle you are living right now, so adjustments will have to be made, and you cant live beyond your own means anylonger.. In the process of the downturn, it also causes more ripple effects, the company you get your tools from would of had to lay some people off, that happened in the machine trade, the poor salesman who sold us tool-inserts and holders, was put out to pasture, our purchasing agent who ordered materials, was let go suddenly, and it goes on and on.. Just something to ponder .....With the discussions---at least it gives everyone time to think over the situation and decide how to handle things that might arise so no-one is blindsided.....

 

[Bunic]

My observation, more about craftsmen in general than just engravers, is that when times get difficult within any market or economy, the truly innovative and customer-oriented artists always survive. The mediocre marketers end up producing nothing but excuses as to why they could not have survived.

Interestingly, it's not always the most talented artists who come out on top. They have a network of faithful customers who know and love their style and willingly purchase their wares, and they tell their friends. They have always built relationships of trust. They communicate confidently with appreciation to their patrons and prospective patrons. They are the experts (whether or not they are 'Masters').

They are innovators and make the needed transition in what they produce without ever sacrificing quality. Their customers have high expectations and the artists never fall short of delivering exactly that.

If you have a copy, read the forward of Winston Churchill's Easton Revolver Book.

 

[MICHAEL]

I was trying to reply to Dakota Doc's post concerning selling to the masses at lower prices compared to selling to a few at higher prices. Couldn't figure out how to post his comment before mine, so I came back and edited mine.
I have a book called "How to buy and sell used guns". The author stated this same arguement about people that sell guns at higher prices to get a higher return compared to the seller that sells at a lower price but turns over many more guns per year. We have a Gun store that has the lowest prices on quality firearms that stays packed every day of the week (They mark up accessories alot though). They recently built a bigger store with an indoor range. It is interesting.
I was impressed by Ray Cover selling casts of his engravings at the engrave in. This is a great way for an artist/ engraver to add to his/ her income and help new engravers by allowing them to hold real work in their hands that will help them become better engravers. I like the idea of purchasing 13 casts for $100.00 compared to paying Ray for 13 knives (I'd go broke).
Fred Marrinan is another example of an innovater. At the engrave-in he was selling a work holding / repositioning tool he had made. He had a box of them and I as I stood there talking with him they flew off the table and when there where only 2 left I handed him my money. Now, everything I engrave is held by his tool and I love it. This showed me that you have to be innovative and think more about what will sell, and to whom, if you're trying to make a living from engraving.

 

[Kevin P.]

Marketing, marketing, marketing!
You can sit back and moan 'the sky is falling, the sky is falling.' You may be the best engraver in the world; but if the world doesn't know it . . . .
If you want to succeed you have to get your work to a place where it will be seen.
And at that place you educate your public; explain what it is that's special in your work, don't denigrate what is produced in the mass market, ignore it. Concentrate on the excellence of what you do.

It's a hard slough and always has been, If you're not passionate about what you're doing, get a different job.
I could go on but I won't. If you're good, marketing is the answer. Don't hide your light under a basket!
Kevin P.

 

[richard hall]

Marketing ? In one regard you might be correct, just tune in to the knife show on tv, they are doing a brisk business there, but they cater to those with small pocket books..Everything now seems to work on the " cheap ", not quality.. The time will come just as the steel mills and machine trades have, that jewerly will be brought in from overseas , saturating the markets here, and that will put a different slant on things.. People now days are hunting the flea markets, everyone looking for a bargin. The engravers will mostly stay in business,just at a reduced rate. I cant see our guys with all their investment, running away from the problems, they will be here for the long term.. I think the term for all of our problems was labeled as " re-distributing the wealth "..........

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

The time will come just as the steel mills and machine trades have, that jewerly will be brought in from overseas , saturating the markets here, and that will put a different slant on things.

That's already been going on for a lot of years. I've dealt with Stuller for 30+ years and more and more they are selling jewelry made overseas. A lot of their engraved earrings are made in Israel.

 

[Kevin P.]

"Everyone who is part of the process who literally suck off of the creativity of others for profit have no soul."
It's called business. Unless you have a direct line to the final buyer you have no choice.

"Marketing ? In one regard you might be correct, just tune in to the knife show on tv . . ."
That's not the marketing I'm talking about. Get out in person to market your work.
There will always be cheap stuff. What will you do to distinguish your self and your work?

The only person I've seen in this crowd who fits the description is Barry Lee Hands.
He does a really good presentation and is not 'overly modest'. And his work lives up to his ego.
Kevin P.

 

[richard hall]

Mass produced engraving, at first, feels threatening. Maybe when the first gravemister came along the scenes, people felt the very same way. Id say, Learondos machine could probably replace 5 to 10 engravers, or 100 if they engrave like I do, so, lets form a co-op, buy one, sit back and watch it make money for us ???? The one of a kind folks wont be hindered, like if you make 2 or 3 muzzleloaders or any thing that is " custom", the markets will still be there, plus the buyers whom know the value of handwork and will not buy anything else, will always be out there. Handwork will always fetch a higher price, that equation cant be put out of the picture......

 

[Roger Bleile]

The only person I've seen in this crowd who fits the description is Barry Lee Hands.
Kevin P.

In all fairness, how many in "this crowd" have you actually seen and among them how many have you seen work a show like Blade, Las Vegas,Tulsa, NRA, or IWA?

No question that BLH is good at promoting himself, his work, and engraving in general but there are others of my aquaintance that are as good in their own way, which accounts for many who have a three to five year backlog for their work.

The whole issue of self promotion is a little OT regarding the impact of mass produced decoration on gun engravers. But this isn't the first time a thread got a little off topic.

Nevertheless when you write "Get out in person to market your work.
There will always be cheap stuff. What will you do to distinguish your self and your work?" you are spot on for the individual artisan. Many clients patronize a particular artisan because they feel they have a personal bond with him or her and not just because they perceive that artisan's work is better than someone else's.

RB

 

[Kevin P.]

Roger I did not mean to denigrate anyone's work.
I thought I was clear that I mentioned I saw Barry in action. I haven't seen others in action at knife or gun shows. I have not attended knife shows but I've seen amazing work at FEGA by others.
I thought my response was in line with the topic. Sorry if I lead anyone astray.
Kevin P.

 

[handengraver]

Roger, my take on the issue is unchanged for long time. I find it misleading and fraudulent to present objects with decorations as engraved ones, if the process of execution is completely alien from incisions done by gravers.

Acid etching, computer dragged diamond point scratching, casting (even if the original was engraved), stamping - even if the die was handengraved - are only imitating individually hand engraved pieces, some better some worst, but all are fakes compared to the hand engraved originals.

I would suggest an educative campaign, opposing the liberal use of the term "engraving" or "engraver".

A person who is working with a pantograph, using diamond point or a rotating cutter is NOT an engraver, but a pantograph operator. A person using a computerized or laser controlled marking device is NOT an engraver, but a computer operator.

Even my favorite gun manufacturer S&W showing up on the market with a number of Walther PPK-s decorated by computer, does a great disservice for our trade when they claim those as engraved handguns, for those are not, and they should know it better.

In the Old World there was some certifications reqired before one could have called himself an engraver. Here in the US the laws are very peculiar about practicing certain trades, such us plummer, electrician, etc. It is extremely hard to understand, why don't we engravers enjoy the same protection as craftsmen and craftswomen, and why is the present permissivness of fradual misrepresentation encouraged and tolerated.

I am not really angry, it just sounded so...

Greetings - Ivan

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Wonder why no one is talking about the power tools used by engravers.A blacksmith invented the gas welding technique,and hence,the slow destruction of the trade.The manufacturers are following the engravers lead.For most engravers dont think it makes a difference if they use power tools or not,and hence call it hand engraving.No progression marks or tool marks to elude to hand tools.So whats the difference.Modern american engraving is a weird mongrel hybrid thingamagigger.I have seen this same thing ruin the hand made knife markets.People using machines and calling it hand made.I dont think anybody who is un-willing,for whatever reason,to be forth coming with their power assisted work,has any high ground from which to voice this stance/arguement on.So,maybe this trade is going the way of the blacksmith?God Bless,mike

 

[Roger Bleile]

"...For most engravers dont think it makes a difference if they use power tools or not,and hence call it hand engraving." Power assisted engraving is "hand engraving" as long as the graver is operated in a freehand manner. Without the freehand control of a GraverMax or Lindsay AirGraver, you can turn it on and it will do nothing. The day I can turn on the air pressure to my PC and it jumps off of the bench and starts engraving is the day I will agree with you on this point. RB

"No progression marks or tool marks to elude to hand tools.So whats the difference." By using the tungston piston and adjusting the stroke on my PC I can show progress marks in my work if I choose to and sometimes I do. However if progress marks are desired for some effect the magnagraver will easily provide them. RB

"I have seen this same thing ruin the hand made knife markets.People using machines and calling it hand made." Far from ruining the market for hand engraving, since the invention of the GraverMeister in the late 1960s, I have witnessed a rennissance of engraving in the USA which has been directly attributable to the introduction of these tools. RB

"I dont think anybody who is un-willing,for whatever reason,to be forth coming with their power assisted work,has any high ground from which to voice this stance/arguement on." Who do you know who uses a power assisted graver who is not forthcoming about it or uses power assist and claims to clients that the work is done with H&C or burin? I don't know anybody who does that. It seems like you are attempting to position yourself on some kind of moral high ground because you choose to use traditional tools for your own personal reasons. I recognize that there will always be folks who choose to live in a log cabin without electricity or running water and prefer to hunt for their food with a flintlock rifle. I respect them and wish them well for keeping old ways alive. All I ask is that they do not denigrate others who choose a different path as long as that path is not unethical or destructive of others. RB

"So,maybe this trade is going the way of the blacksmith?" Maybe it will and maybe it won't, but my opinion (based on following the trade for over 30 years) is that it may be economic conditions or cultural shifts that cause a demise and not whether we use power assist or not. RB

I'm sure others will be motivated to address the issues raised in this post.

CRB

 

[diandwill]

I am reminded of the situation several years ago, when an enterprising individual marketed a hand made, no additive Ketchup, and marketed it is "natural"

It turns out that the major Ketchup conglomerates had already convinced the FDA that what they made was natural, including additives and preservatives, and the individual was blocked from using natural, organic or any of the other descriptive phrases. He ended up having to use "old fashioned" I think.

Perhaps FEGA or some other large entity could file to have "hand engraved" fit into a compartment that meant it was done by methods that we, as hand engravers, recognize as acceptable.

Not to denigrate systems that are computer driven, just that labeling should be honest and accurate.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Mike

I think that you have made some massive leaps of logic there. I think the demise of blacksmiths is a little more complex than that.

Once you start getting into those arguments about the use of modern machinery/ tooling you are on a very slippery slope.

Do knifemakers use electric drills? Do knifemakers use electric lanishers? Do knife makers use electric buffing wheels? Do knifemakers use power hacksaws? Do knifemakers use anything electric or power driven at all?

In fact what actually constitutes "hand made" or even "hand done"?? Certainly not the presence of tooling marks. For a few thousand years artisans and craftsmen that have been working with precious metals have been eliminating them from their work.

You have to remember that when you are talking "power tools" with engraving...........and I'm presuming that you are referring to GRS, Lindsay, NGraver type tools............all they are is small hammers that fit into your hand. They do nothing else but provide a reciprocating action to the tool in the same way an electric power drill provides a rotary action. You still have to pick it up and guide it into the work.

It is the hand, mind and soul that drives the tool that makes the work either good or bad......not the tools being used.

Di and Will....FEGA get involved in the political world of trying to define what "hand engraved" actually means??? It would be easier to try and herd a bunch of feral cats into a compound filled with dogs!!!! I don't see any useful purpose trying to do that. At the end of the day it's all semantics. The mass produced manufacturers will do what they want to do and market it the best way they can, and all power to them............ In the mean time we will do what we have always done............create objects of beauty for the custom market.

It's always a fruitless exercise worrying about what the "opposition" is doing. Concentrate on your own business and never let the "fear" get to you. There have always been prophets of doom and John the Baptists crying in the wilderness while people cover themselves in sack cloth and ashes......................... Let them at it while the rest of us carry on getting on with the job in hand and living life

Cheers
Andrew

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

O.K.rodger and andrew,rodger you sure are defensive of your choice to use power tools.Why? Now,this slippery slope.Andrew,when i say hand forged,i mean hand forged! Not laying the piece down and throttling it with a jack hammer,which is held in someones hands.No,a hand made knife maker does not use any power tools ,other than what can be made to operate with human power.Why is everyone so drawn to power tools? Lack of dedication? Europeans,for the most part dont use these things.Why do americans,and those influenced by america.Its the ,"I dont care about developing the skills necessary to engrave by manual power,I want it now!!" Nothing worth having comes easy.Why do you use power tools? I suppose there are two possible reasons.1) Was covered above.2)In order to produce the work faster,or produce more work in a given amount of time. What do you think?There are other reasons,such as physical handicaps etc...But those are the exception.Its easier to learn with power tools.Why denigrate those who use this same logic to "mass produce" decoration? After all,they are just taking the next logical step.These producers have learned that people dont generally care what tools were used,they just care about the end product.I feel that those who use power tools and call it hand engraved have contributed to the denigration,and the confusion of the consumer.Why not say it like it is."I know you dont really care how the job gets done,so i will use whatever i want in the way of tools,and call it hand engraved.After all,you probably wont/dont know the difference.Why not just suck it up and call it power tool pushing,or,power assisted engraving,or,screw it ,just call it hand done! Just something to mull over. If i am a machinist,but dont use cnc,i use machines that need human intervention to make the machine operate the intended way,am i now a hand machinist?NO! I am a machinist.Just something to ponder.Not looking for an arguement,or even a reply!God Bless,mike

 

[fegarex]

Mike,
I think there is a line somewhere that has to be drawn between "hand made" and "hand engraved" verses "machine made/engraved". I know little about custom knives but I doubt that there was ever a knife made/engraved like the recent Ray Cover post that was done with a wood fired forge and an anvil. As far as I know if you go and get a custom made suit the people probably use an electric sewing machine.
As others have said when an air powered graver is turned on it starts engraving all by itself, then I guess I would no longer call it hand engraving. For me, I am going to continue to use an air powered graver, have electric lights, gas fired furnace and a car to take the finished product to UPS instead of delivering by horse and cart.
Why do the Europeans for the most part do this by hand? For the most part this means Italy. They have several schools there and limited budgets and inexpesive schooling. You go there to learn, practice and then become a low priced slave doing production work to pay for your learning. You are also working on dead soft brand new firearms. You start there as a teen and perhaps in many years you can go out on your own.
If this what you want, that is fine and have no issues with that. For the most part many engravers are baby boomers and the eyes and other physical aspects are on the downhill slide. Trying to wrestle a push graver through a hard American handgun just doesn't make sense. On the same aspect, should the machine made handguns even be engraved? Or should we just stay with hand built muzzleloaders.
If you want to use a hammer and chisel, no electric lights, wood fired stoves and all of this done in a log cabin, fine. I have no problem with that. There are still many Americans that use hammer and chisel and the work they do can be considered the best there is. An example of that is Ron Smith. But if he were to use an air assisted graver I really don't think his customers would care. I've been involved in every "Engravers Choice" award that FEGA has each year and I have yet to see members judging the work by what kind of tool was used to do the work.

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

Do knifemakers use electric lanishers?

I Googled that and can't find anything to define what one is. What is a lanisher?

 

[Kevin P.]

I Googled that and can't find anything to define what one is. What is a lanisher?

Andrew dropped a 'p' it's planisher
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

Rex it's interesting that 'bespoke' custom suits are still sewed by hand.

Andrew's "It is the hand, mind and soul that drives the tool that makes the work either good or bad......not the tools being used.' cannot be improved upon, in my opinion.

But it's fear of change that causes all this commotion see: 'luddite'. Change is difficult for everyone. We all in some degree, want things the way they used to be; see: 'reactionary'

I hope we can all do work that satisfies our individual 'take' on things. There is nothing we can do about the world in general.
Kevin P.