Question: What is the impact of mass produced decoration on gun engraving?

[Marcus Hunt]

I Googled that and can't find anything to define what one is. What is a lanisher?

Andrew dropped a 'p' it's planisher
Kevin P.

No, a lanisher (sometimes called a lanishing machine)is one of those big sanding belts driven by an electric motor. Might be called something else in the US but Kiwis are of British decent.

I can't believe my eyes that we are having the same old debate and argument over what constitutes hand engraving. If you are going to be a pedant hand engraving is pushing a graver through steel by hand simple. You could say that if you hit the graver with a hammer you are employing another tool to help the graver pass through the metal so it's not really hand engraving but something else. Of course this is all rubbish. Hand engraving is guiding a tool which is held in the hand to which the only means of control is the human body. As Andrew says, air assisted tools have an internal hammer to help the graver pass through the metal. That's all, simple.

The learning curve is shorter using air assist for no other reason than one no longer has to build up muscle memory (which takes many months) or getting the hammer to hit the chisel in a proper manner. Apart from that all the cuts are the same and if you can't guide a graver to give good results no tool is going to do it automatically for you.:beat up:

 

[JJ Roberts]

Common sense is alive and well in merry old England,thank you Marcus.J.J.

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

I appreciate the fact that you guys encorage me and others to follow their own path!Its obvious i have irritated some of you,thats not the intent,i appologize.It doesnt bother me that you may think that old tools are not necessarily.But you guys are reinforcing what i am trying to say.Most people dont care how the work was done.I myself do care.I try my absolute hardest to not buy stuff from china.I mean the mass produced stuff.There is a whole generation of people with the green mentality,and are looking more closely at the footprints created to reach the end product.You also pointed out that most engravers are baby boomers.Most boomers dont believe in global warming,like to drive big cars,live the american dream. Lynton had access to power gravers,why didnt he use them?Why dont others use them if given the opportunity?Some individuals live on a different plane,internally.Some fell that their work should contain a little of themselves.Some feel that solitude and hand work is somewhat of a spiritual journey.Some cant stand the noise of a machine operating.Some fit into all of these catagories.I think that when statements are made like ,the customer doesnt care,might also read as this.If the customer doesnt care,why should I? These machines that are mass producing decorations(isnt that what this thread is about?) are run,programed,designed,maintained,by hands attached to people.Some people grow up to be machinists,some people grow up to be Ghandi.But you all have answered your own questions on this topic.If the customer doesnt care if its mass produced,why do any of you care?Why do you care what I say.If you have no doubts that you are truly engraving by hand,why the need to defend?As far as a blade being forged in a charcoal fired forge and hammered on an anvil,being of the quality of Rays(sorry ray,somebody had to drag you into this by name,it wasnt me),I say just look at the traditional samurai sword,Hand made,hand polished,hand engraved.As far as being a slave,in exchange for learning.Thats called an apprenticeship. Here we buy our training.Which means we have to slave somewhere to have the funds to buy ourselves an apprenticeship,that doesnt indenture us to repay.We dont make our own tools,for the most part.We buy them,why learn to make what you can buy? To each his own.American mentality is buy buy buy.When i first started my engraving,i called a FEGA master who lives down the road from me.Asked if he would be willing to show me how to sharpen a graver?He asked if i had a power hone and graver holder?I said i wanted to learn to hand sharpen,he said he never learned to hand sharpen.Got very short,and told me to buy some power tools,and go to school.So ,what good does that advice do to further the trade/art? Lets look at this from a different perspective.Do you differentiate between hand sharpening and power/machine sharpening.How many engravers can work without a jig or template?Is there a difference between hand drawn or computer generated?Either you can work without power,or you cant.There are those who can do both.Rodger,i have noticed that on the other forum,everytime a newbee joins and asks about the tools needed to get started,you seem to always steer towards the power tools,sounding their virtues,while negating anything that doesnt need to be plugged in.You also mentioned Phil using power.Thats a very recent addition to his arsenal.From what he has shared i dont see a drastic improvement in his quality of work,just the quantity.Thats what machines are for,increasing productivity.Some are to increase accuracy,like mills,lathes,etc.I have also heard said to newbees that rotary tools are not truly engraving,but many hand engravers employ them.Rodger,you also strongly advised beginners to not waste time making tools when thay can be bought so cheap.America used to raise some serious craftsmen,who learned the foundations of their chosen field.Its a shame that is no longer the case.I see all of this high tech equipment as a crutch/bridge to get around having to learn the basics.The learning is being done backwards,then when a tool breaks down,they are out of work,or the work cant get done.You dont give a kid a lambourgini on their forth birthday,you give them a peddle fire engine,or a tri cycle.You teach them the foundations first.Now we dont even have to learn to tie our shoes,we can velcro them.I think this causes a loss of depth in a society at large.No longer do we have to crawl before we can run.I am not against anyone who wants or needs to use power. There is a verse in the bible that goes something like this,you dont build your house on the sand,for the first storms that come will cause it to fall.Also,dont cast your seed on rocky ground,for it can not root.These are not direct quotes,but get my point across,i hope.Rodger,we have hashed this out before in other posts,you obviously are a staunch supporter of the easiest way,I am under no illusions that i will sway you one way or the other.Dont care to.But it does bother me that when a newbe wants to learn from the bottom up,you try to persuade them otherwise.Why not let them build a solid house,built on a solid foundation?All of those skills will easily cross over to power tools.How many can say the same for those who start with power,can they easily pick up manual tools? mike

 

[fegarex]

.................wow.............................

 

[mitch]

tundratreker-

i'm not irritated with you, but the size of that paragraph makes my eyes & head hurt. would you mind terribly going back and breaking that up a bit? maybe into paragraphs, chapters and volumes 1-3? ;-)

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Mitc,wish i knew how to do that.

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

I just went on line and looked at some definitions of engraving.Interesting to say the least.All i was trying to say was that ,if we as engravers are unwilling to differentiate between different forms/methods of engraving,why should we expect the mass producers to make that differentiation for us.You call what you do hand engraving,they call what they do engraving.You are trying to make them do what you are unwilling to do. They may be looking at engravers of today,and say well,they are using machines,and charging us X amount.We have machines that we can use for X amount.What is the difference?The average customer doesnt know the difference,or even care.Voilla,we now are here with this thread.
Thats what i saw with my knife market,the dealers are selling knives that are labled hand made,when they arent.They are machine made,wether they hold the blade to the machine or not.That has affected the market,for me.Now the dealer and customer believe this was hand made,and cant understand why one is at such a lower price.Not knowing the difference,they opt for the cheaper product.Same thing,i imagine with engraving.This puts the artist in a position of either tightening the belt,or going to power tools in an attempt to regain his/her market.
Thats what i think is going on with engraving.People feel the need to work faster to be able to compete with machines.Where will a line be drawn,it seems to be a really wide fuzzy grey line.Unfortunately,it will just get murkier,if we arent willing to make things clear on our end.I am sure that all this is going to have little effect on the high end of the spectrum.For those who are trying to get a foot in the door,it makes things rough. mike

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Why did we move out of the stoneage?

 

[Kevin P.]

"For those who are trying to get a foot in the door,it makes things rough"

There's nothing to be done about those others.
We have to see what we can do to produce better work.
Kevin P.

 

[richard hall]

Mike, read your post. When I started out in early 1977,there was very limit information, or, I didnt know where to look or who to ask. My first graver was made from a three-corner file which was fine for cutting muzzleloader patch-boxes. I sharpened by hand with the same stones I used to sharpen my knives with, and it was a hit and miss project. Later found a crocker graver sharpener to use and also moved up to high speed tooling.. If someone was coming to me today and wanted to learn to sharpen by hand, Id also pull a "ROGER" on them and point them in the direction of the power=tool and the dual-angle sharpener-----because, its the quickest way to get them on the road so they can start cutting, and, thats what they want to do.That really takes the guess work out of it. Its nice to be traditional, I still use the hammer and chisel and cut good lines,but its like all the people on this forum say, the learning curve is longer and some just plain give it up..Brian Powley, last year, let me try out his air-powered gravemax, I couldnt do a thing with it, also looked like a fool Iam sure, but I also saw the benifits right away,as it leaves one of your hands free to move the vise around and no stopage while you are cutting... Ive also been a machinists for 37 years, when I first started out,we sharpened all of our own tools by hand,putting clearance on them where it was needed, but todays machine operators have ready made carbides available and have no idea how to sharpen a tool, today they have inserts which they change and they are ready to go..Its nice to know how to sharpen a tool by hand, but that is also a time-consuming process,it takes time to learn and it takes time to get it correct. The master engraver was trying to save you alot of head-ache, he didnt want you to take the same hard bumps on the head like he had to undertake. Iam glad that you take pride in your work, but remember, theses other fellows do too......

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Richard,I understand what you are saying.But there are people out there who want to learn these things,even now.I do understand the learning curve,i have been trying to teach myself.I am not putting anybody down.I know that everyone on here is respected by myself.What ever tools they use.

Rodger,i can respect your thoughts on the matters too.I was not/am not trying to attack anyones person.But when some one is truly dedicated,and want to learn to do it with manual tools,they shouldnt be dissuaded.Especially,in the beginning.This economy has hit most in some way or another.It can become a road block for someone to think that the way to success is to have the newest gizmos.So to think of dumping a cool 5-10 grand to tool up,can cause some to put off their dream of becoming an engraver.

I sure hope i wasnt coming off as holier than thou.I wasnt even saying that i am proud of my own engraving.I am not in the league with most of you.And am grateful for all of your freely shared knowledge.I am approaching these things from maybe a philosophical (kind of)perspective.

Maybe i am an idealist visionary.I seem to forget when i am communicating with others that not every one thinks the same,or has the same life experiences,or the same perspective on things.

This thread went in a direction that i did not for see or intend.I just couldnt seem to get my point across in a way that it could be interpreted the way i intended. To those i may have upset,i apologize. Thanks for tolerating me.God Bless ,mike

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Mike

First of all I want to acknowledge your points. I don't necessarily agree with all of them but I certainly respect them. These sorts of conversations always arouse stimulating debate which is a good thing. They never change anything but they can be fun and interesting. After all, what sort of a world would it be if we all agreed with one another???......Ok, Ok, world peace, brotherhood of man and group hugs........... I know

You are quite correct in saying if someone wishes to go down the hammer and chisel, push burin way then they should be encouraged to do so. To each his own and we all have different paths that we wish to peruse.

But..............

The thing is this. I have noticed the general age group of the people on these forums, and in particular the age group of people wanting to take up engraving as a hobby, tend to be middle age and above (me included) Most don't have a lot of time to devote to practicing.

Almost, without fail, everyone that comes to the forum with no money in their pockets and wants to make all their own tools to hold the work, hammer the work, cut the work, hand sharpen and so on............fail very quickly never to be seen again. Half the time they can't decide if they want to be tool makers or engravers.......and all of that is before they have picked up a pencil or graver. Most of them never get to the hand sharpening bit, or if they do, simply give up at that point because they get so incredibly frustrated that they can't even cut a piece of metal.

In times gone past people had no choice in the matter as hammer/chisel/burin was the only path you could follow and most tooling had to be made in the workshop (or a friends) as it was not readily available to buy. Engraving supplies were extremely limited and most American engravers self taught. Hand sharpening was all there was and an engraver had to be part tool maker and part engraver......and still do to a large degree

Now we have choices, and lots of them. Thanks to companies like GRS and other suppliers and internet shopping there is an abundance of choice for the rank beginner to the most highly skilled.You can buy what you want from the most basic of set-ups to the most high tech. There is something for everyone and all the methods are valid.

So with that in mind I would also recommend to most folks that they start with the pneumatic tools. They can get to sharpening and cutting quickly and are off to a decent start. The rest is up to them and how much aptitude they have and time to devote to the art. They can take a class if they so desire and at the end of it have enough running knowledge to keep them going for years.

However, if they want to go the hammer/chisel/burin way.........then all power to them and that's great. No one is suggesting otherwise, Roger included. But the practical reality is that most will simply fail out of sheer frustration and the attrition rate high simply because they can't get to first base of cutting metal without a lot of extra hassle. A lot of the older hands can see that and genuinely want to give the rank beginner as best start as possible for maximum success so recommend the pneumatic tools..............But you're right, those that really want to will always find a way.......... and good on 'em. It's that very diversity that makes the art of engraving so interesting.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[pilkguns]

Mike,
I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Whatever it is I think the purpose would be better served if you wrote nicely in paragraphs with proper punctuation and grammar. To continue to do otherwise only makes your overall point look foolish and uneducated regardless of it’s validity. Even more so when your engraving skills are not to a high enough level to give some validity to your claims . Also you also have said that you don’t mean to offend, but you continue to misspell your alleged adversaries name and other people’s names despite your being corrected by other posters. I can only see this as deliberately insulting on your part to those individuals.

I learned H-C and taught H-C classes on numerous occasions, and wore a bit of chip on my shoulder about my work being superior to “machine work” before being converted to air assist. And I engraved at a pretty high level totally by hand (by your definition); see my recent thread Family Portraits. I have since taught many classes and individuals with air assist. With all that experience I think anyone is crazy to try to learn H-C. except for a very specialized purpose or reason.

You want to talk about carbon footprint and infer that H-C is more green? While it would be hard to pinpoint exact numbers, there is no doubt that there would be thousands of hours of energy wasted in terms of light and heating your working environment to achieve a level of proficiency with hammer and chisel that can be reached in literally days with air assist and a good sharpening system.


Good luck with journey, wherever it takes you.
Scott



And yes, this is far cry from the subject of mass produced decorations/so-called-engraving on guns impacting the market of those of producing one of a kind works of art.

 

[Kevin Scott]

Impact

What are the effects on engravers when or if Leonardo's amazing machine or something like it becomes common at gun manufacters or they can send their gun parts to a company that has this type of machine? Personally I thing that will be happening within 5 years or so.

Its called "progress" and no amount of Marketing or consumer awareness or education campaigns or goverment laws can stop it. Historically people or businesses and industries have to adapt or die.

I agree mostly with Mike's point that air power and other tools have have somewhat blurred the definition of "hand engraving." ( I think that is one of the things he is trying to get across). But personally I think air assist and sharpening tools is still "hand engraving".

My opinion has zero value. The opinions that count are the people that spend money on engraved products. I think they will in significant numbers buy the products made by machines like Leonardo"s and will have a big effect on the engraving world. Just my opinion based on history. Kevin Scott

 

[Kevin P.]

Kevin this is not necessarily a response but a general point to make.
The only thing certain is change.
And how long is your prospective: manufacture is derived from man (hand) facture (made) therefore 'hand made'; but its usage and meaning have changed a great deal.
Kevin P.

 

[richard hall]

Mike, your valid point about most people not carring about how its done, made me think. Roger asked about mass produced guns and the impact. If a person walks into a gun store and spies what he is looking for, plus it is already engraved and he doesnt have to send it off for a month or so,and the price is right, he isnt going to care how its done,as long as it looks good to him. On another note; there are purists, when people declared the end of the muzzleloader, it sprang back to life, maybe just as womans fashions also come back into style. With that said, Ill go have lunch......

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Roger,sorry for the misspelling! I wish someone pointed that out before andrew.Totaly unintentional.

Scott,sorry for the grammar+punctuation.Why do my engraving skills have anything to do with anything?The only time i mentioned skills were in response to Roger(hope thats right) saying something about Phil using air tools.I think at his(Phil) level,that from the pictures i have seen,his work was just as good,before he added air tools.I could be wrong!

As to carbon footprint,Scott,you left out the footprint created in the manufacturing of the tools themselves.As far as my wasted fuel,i work in my small shack,where i also live and sleep.It is already being heated and lit.

I never thought i had an adversary,alleged or not.

Andrew,what does middle aged have to do with it?I would think it easier for a mature person making the decision to get into engraving,to make that commitment to the dedication required to succeed,with whatever tools they choose.If they give up,maybe they weren't ready to become an engraver,or it was something they thought was an easy endeavor.Isn't that called natural selection?Which only ensures that the strongest survive.

I wanted to raise this point also.James Meeks book,only has a small chapter at the end relating to air tools.Implying to me that he recommends to start with the basics.Then and only then ,after reading an entire book on manual tools and their manufacture and usage,does he even let the student know that a power engraving tool even exists.Isn't this one of the most recommended treatise on engraving for the beginner? Scott,why did you become"converted" to power tools? Being that you had already reached status as a top notch engraver.

I think a lot of the"masters" started with manual tools,then switched/added power tools afterwards. That can be misleading to the novice in that as fewer of you talk positively of that method/tools,they believe that most started with modern power tools,and thats how they got good.So they do as you do,not even aware that there is a more basic way to go. God Bless,mike

 

[kguns]

What a difference a week makes.

I was going to pass on this, but now I think y'all need to be reminded what happened back in the day.

In 1972 if you wanted to be an engraver how would you do it?

You could find an engraver that would help you and teach what little he knew. In my case it was Johnny Thompson, Hialeah Fla.

You could go to school? In 1974 there were few choices. My dad called the NRA and asked them where I could go. They answered Liege, Belgium. Well if you want to be a gun engraver, but at 18 years old, what do you know about guns? The answer is nothing! So I spent 2 1/2 years and 2963 hours at the Colorado School of trades, (gunsmithing), in the day they were king with over 300 students, Then 4 years in Belgium, with Rene Delcour and Phil Grifnee, ( Hammer & Chisel) a few years latter some time in Gardona Val Trompia at Cesare Giovanelli's with Giacomo Fausti, ( Push Tools ). Then 20+ years of Hammer & Chisel & Push, Hand Sharpening, Doing everything by hand.

Then a few sharp minds start developing air assisted tools and suddenly the past 20 years of work and experience are not quite as valuable, or needed as it once was. Why? Because these sharp minds developed and refined the tool used to engrave, it has given people the ability to accomplish what took decades to achieve, now can has been mastered by some in less than a few years,

INCREDIBLE,

It's the only real innovation in hand engraving in CENTURIES.

It's like we got to witness the Bronze age going out the door.

So I'm a Professional Hand Engraver, 29 Years,

But do you stop learning? Do you reject something new because it isn't TRADITIONAL? I never stop learning, every engraver I ever meet or spoken to knew something about engraving I didn't know.

It would be absurd if they told Rembrandt he couldn't use a new brush because it was too technically advanced.

I use computers, pantograph's, cameras, tracing paper, acid etching and this one will kill some of you, a 6 axis CNC mill,

Leonardo, YOU GO BOY! Show us what you got.

I do not regret one minuet of the time I spent slinging a hammer I still use H&C, power tools can't do everything, but they can and do things that H&C could never do no matter whom you'd like to quote as being able to do so.

When I started training as an engraver there was only one way to do it.

Today, we have several choices, so you'll have to make a choice. Start with H&C and put in 10-15 years before your adequate enough to engrave and sell your work.

Or step into the present state of the art.

I would suggest trying both H&C and Air Assisted and see which your better with.

Most of use already know the answer.

Two quotes from Friends whom are much smarter than me.

You can thrive with technology, or you can die from it.

It ain't ART if it don't sell.

The question of course was will technology do away with Hand Engraving?

NO, but as with all great things, their will be precious few.

 

[John B.]

Mike,
I find a lot of truth in what you say.
And as an old timer I believe in a firm grounding in the basics of any skill. Important and valuable.
On that, which I believe is your main point we are on the same page.
Most of the engraving greats that we look up to today started with the basics and this has given them a firm foundation on which to build progressive skills.
Some still use the basics and others have considered and adopted the application of the evolving tooling and technology.
I do not presume to speak for all but most of those that I know personally do not consider that engravers that use power assisted handpieces are creating machine engraving.
They are moving with evolution. And that would include power sharpening also.
My belief is that it is the first piece of power equipment that the beginner should buy other than some magnification.
When I teach I start with power sharpeners so the student can get consistent, repeatable tools angles and learn how a properly shaped tool feels when cutting the metal.
Knowing that many cannot make the immediate investment before they return home to practice it is then the easiest and proper time to show them how to hand sharpen.
Having some engraving experience it is not so important for the tool to be perfectly shaped.
Their hand can now be adjusted to accommodate slight variations.
Talking power assist in general, should the addition of power optics and/or microscopes be considered as an encroachment upon pure hand engraving?
After all, it’s a power assist.
Mike, I think it would be a great loss to eliminate many of our aging engravers or others because they may not have perfect eyesight.
And so it is with the power assisted, hand operated engraving tools. They can extend the useful career of some.
Roger, I beg your pardon for further straying off your original premise of the effect of mechanically, chemically or laser applied decoration to firearms, knives and other products.
Your great post sure got a lot of well deserved attention even if some of us got OT.

Best.

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

KGUN,very well put! Thank you.See,i dont discourage the use of power tools.They are a great advantage,and sometimes,maybe the only suitable tool for the job.This thread was about how mass produced decoration will effect the engraver.Thats where all of my posts have been directed.They are still being taken in the wrong way. God Bless,mike