Question: What is the impact of mass produced decoration on gun engraving?

[Leonardo]

Dear Roger,

I think that in no way you are setting yourself up for obsolesence! Also I think that, deep inside ourselves, we know what we are paying for at the time of making a purchase. What happens is that, some times (almost all the times ), we can not afford what we would really like to own.

I my self would love to have my Colt .45 Auto engraved by one of you artist! But perhaps it is because all of us know what we are talking about.
I like a lot the finest things like my Silhouette eye glasses or my golden S.T. Dupont lighter (nothing like kill yourself with class!) but, again, almost all the times I must resign myself to a lower end things... at last, any of these possession will not be with us inside the wooden box... Oh, the glasses might be...

I have seen and listened many chats between fellows in shooting places at the time of showing themselves their guns (way cheap guns!) but talking marvels about them... the most of the people do not know nothing about what their are talking about... but they talk very much!
Getting back on my lighter, when someone ask me for a light it is highly improbable that he/she recognize the lighter... people have no idea what I have in my hand unless he/she would be a jeweler or an educated person. This is the market the machine "engraving" are intended for. The manufacturers do not want to loose a single opportunity to profit.

There are two important commercial concepts to take in account here, like the Real Value and the Perceived Value. Those guns that were machine decorated have and attractive perceived value that easy the sales although they have not a real value at last.

Regarding the word "engraving" or "engraved", at my best knowledge, there is no other way to call it in Spanish. We call it "grabado" in all the cases with no difference between the different procedures to do it. Perhaps Mario Sarto, Arnaud, Jean, etc., can tell us how they call "engraving" in their languages and also if there are any differentiation depending on the procedure involve to do it.

Well, as you use to say... just my 2 cents. :beat up:

Best regards,
Leonardo.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Educating the masses isnt working, as they think with their wallets and trying to hang onto thier homes at the same time...

I think this is the problem. We can never hope to compete with the masses or mass markets. We have to find specialist niches in hope of survival. Look at how many mass market guns Beretta sell as opposed to their high end SO series. If every gun they made had to be hand engraved either there would have to be a huge increase in the number of engravers or they would have to decrease their output; something that just ain't going to happen.

 

[Leonardo]

DakotaDocMartin,

Thank you very much for editing your post to change the bold text. It looks really good now!
I must second Mitch in his suggestion because I was about asking you the same many times but have not found the right and polite English words to write such a comment to you.

Thank you again!
Leonardo.

 

[kguns]

You could write another book on this topic Roger. Most of what’s been posted is true.. Technology is a wondrous thing it has done much to improve the Human Condition. I live near a very High Tech City. Huntsville Alabama. Alabama???? That’s right, they build stuff that fly’s fast and goes BOOM! . So advancement in technology is a common theme around here. There will come a day when anything can be replicated to whatever degree is desired, whether it’s marketable or not is another question.

The large manufactures study the trends in the consumer market, and cheaper is salable on their level, Hand work is mostly reserved for that special piece. Any commercial engraver has entertained the idea of technology advancing their work, to make it better, faster, cheaper,

In 1993 I started on a gun project with U.S.R.A.C., Engrave 110, Model 1894 rifles in one year. The prototype took 180 hours. In a normal world I could have done perhaps 25 guns in one year. With the expertise of Baron Technology in Trumbell CT. We acid etched the background out. It enabled the project to advance rapidly, with a great degree of consistence from one gun to the next. I averaged 8 to11 guns a month. It was beautiful, not to mention profitable, and if done correctly it is nearly impossible to see anything but hand work.

We have discuss transferring designs, pantographs, acid etched, rolled, plating, pneumatic tools, etc. computers with all their amazing software. If you want to see the future look a software program called Zbrush.

http://www.pixologic.com/home.php

It’s freaky! I love it and once you hook that program into a 5 or 6 axis mill it will blow you away as to what you can accomplish in a fraction of the time it would take by hand tools. It should be embraced not shunned as though it isn’t worthy of the term ART.

Look at any good jewelry shop and you’ll find mills, software, computers churning out stuff that was near impossible 10 years ago. Is it easy? Only to the well trained. Like any endeavor if your going to be the best it takes a lot of work and time, and that’s what it’s all about time. Time is money.

You can make numerous comparisons. Cars, Cigars, Motorcycles and anything else you’d like a to make a comparison to. I was once a purist, 30 years ago. Today, ANYTHING to achieve the art I want to do, I say saddle up that Tiger and ride him for all he’s worth. If you don’t someone else will.

You can thrive, with technology, or you can die from it.

The folks who buy this type of engraving are not the same people that are interested in what we produce, for whatever reason. So have no fear, there will always be a demand for hand made, it’s just part of the Human Condition.

 

[Gargoyle]

Educating the masses isnt working, as they think with their wallets and trying to hang onto thier homes at the same time...

I heard a related discussion on NPR this morning. They said that the concept of trying to buy everything at discount, and to pay lowest possible price, is historically quite new. Prior to WWII people grew up with the concept that "you get what you pay for". Of course, back then, most things were still hand made.

They related this to the current recall of half a billion eggs- in the relentless drive to find cheaper and cheaper ways to make anything (be it engraving, food, housing, what have you) we risk destroying much of what we've built.

Anyway, if historically, in our DNA, is the concept of "you get what you pay for", is there any way to make that return to the collective consciousness, or has WalMart won the war?

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Yeah Rick ... maybe too much truth in fantasy land if you know what I mean :big grin: A strange correlation between the most affluent areas of the country is that those areas generally have the strictest firearms laws. It usually takes a visit to one of those places to refresh my memory that the sky is not going to fall anytime soon. Discussions on this subject have a tendency to lead us down that path. I believe I will re-read Andrew's positive post and call it quits after this post. It's not so much the "attack of the machines" (or the economy) that affects me as much long term as knowing that most of the greatest engravers of our time and whom I have looked up to, in this country, have either retired, moved on to something else, or passed away. To me, that marks a significant change in a great era. For a new engraver to pick up the ball and run with it is particularly difficult in these times.

-----------------

What was that company that made commemoratives from Winchester 94s? Investment Arms? I believe they are defunct now but as I recall, their website showed their "master engravers" and "artists" standing by their laser and plating machines. I remember these guys coming around here in '05 and '06 selling County commemoratives. On my last visit to Cabella's in Wheeling, I found where all those county commemoratives ultimately ended up. Folks were very impressed with them in the gun library and crowded around. Tough to get a looksee but I was content in standing all by myself on the other side of the room eyeballing the Francolini engraved $18,000 Colt SAA. Go figure.

The only legacy that those commemoratives will leave behind is a blatant misrepresentation of engraving .... kindof a "false positive" so-to-speak. They made their money quick and got out .... now those guns are selling for much less than they originally sold for. Chock it up to the commemorative market or the machine made market or both ... I dunno.

... and how about this place ...

http://www.aaengraving.com/entrance.htm

Any company that boasts about their engraving usually show an engraver "at the bench". If they don't, then their work is probably done by machine ... especially if their staff is comprised of mainly sales people and engineers. Maybe this place did hand engraving at one time but I would guess that is laser cut then hand chased at best.

 

[John B.]

Roger, thank you for a very interesting and thought provoking post that has produced such stimulating responses. I have enjoyed reading them. My two cent worth.
Aren’t we really talking about the natural evolution of things pertaining to engraving in general and hand engraving in particular?
There was a time, not too far back when many collectors and other purists considered any engraving that was not done with a burin or h&c to not be real hand engraving.
A very few persist in this belief. Some few still insist that no power assist or transfer be used in the process.
Yes, there is true art engraving and that will never go away, Lord willing.
But there is also a larger amount of serviceable, decent engraving and engraving like decoration.
I believe it is realistic to recognize that there is pure art engraving but also highly skilled decoration and that is where advanced technology will make inevitable inroads.
Just as mankind’s search for easier and more affordable methods is inevitable and has developed the internal combustion engine over the horse and ox for motive power for instance, so it is natural for man to explore all avenues of production to fill their needs and wants for the decoration of their belongings. Natural evolution at work again.
That is where various other advanced methods will play their part.
Light acid, laser or photo engraving that is used in the layout of non-pure art but price critical engraving is a natural and normal progression IMO.
And as time and technology move forward I believe that highly evolved machines such as Leonardo has invented will take a larger proportion of non pure art engraving.
His machine can be programmed to make large or small runs.
Large runs used for the more production and affordable types of engraving.
But it can also be used to cut one-off or very limited runs of the true artist’s layout with the help and/ or collaboration of a talented programmer, maybe the artist themselves. Just as limited edition art prints are produced by the artist or with the help of a skilled printer. These are considered real art even though they are made with the assistance of technology. The program to run the machine is just another highly skilled step in the evolution just as the printing press and operator is in the production of high end art prints.
Sorry, my two cents turned into four.
Best.

 

[TyG]

. So the public is miss informed when it comes to hand engraving they think that everything is done by a machine and that a dremel tool is what we use to engrave it with.

Yes it is up to us to educate the public about exactly what is we do. I have people asking me whether I buy the leather for my saddles already stamped and carved! The public has no comprehension about what goes into "Handmade".

 

[Andrew Biggs]

as much long term as knowing that most of the greatest engravers of our time and whom I have looked up to, in this country, have either retired, moved on to something else, or passed away. To me, that marks a significant change in a great era. For a new engraver to pick up the ball and run with it is particularly difficult in these times.

What you say is true to an extent..............but there are also many still going hard at it. That is just natural attrition in any age and eventually it'll be our turn.

No matter the time it will always be difficult because that is the nature of the beast. I don't know of a time in history when it was a good time to do anything.

In fact, if anything, I think we are probably among the lucky ones where there is a resurgence in the arts and people have more discretionary income to buy our services than any other generation preceding us. We have a level of affluence in our society that is far beyond anything that our forefathers have had. We also have at our fingertips technology that makes it far easier to take up engraving later in life and an abundance of good information freely shared by older hands to the new generation of engravers. Internet, classes, books, e-mail and videos. Thanks to organizations like FEGA and the various internet forums we also have networking and a sharing of information that was once considered very secretive.

There will always be those that rise above the rest of the pack and be seen as the best of their time. That has applied to every generation throughout history and ours is no exception. These people never start out that way but through a lot of hard work, attention to detail, bad and good times, plus their own personal demeanor end up becoming some of the best of their generation. Some plan it that way but most don't and these people often only see themselves as providing a good life for themselves and their families. Others judge their work by paying for it.

Further to Barry's comments you also have to look at the age group of who is taking up engraving. Is it the young ones that start at age 16-17-18 looking for a lifetime career? Or is it more the middle aged with spare time and money on their hands looking for a worthwhile hobby which can perhaps morph into a change of careers later in life???

Adding to what John B has said, I remember talking to some of the older FEGA engravers on my first trip to the USA. They told tales of hidden Gravermeisters under work benches so that clients wouldn't see the "machine" Projects covered in the workshop so it couldn't be seen by other engravers. Techniques kept secret (or imagined they were secret) so they had an edge on the rest of the pack...................how times have changed.

I personally think the future of engraving is a very bright one, gun engraving included, and we should count our blessings that we live in such a day and age.........it's up to us to get out there and do something with it. Some will fail, some will always struggle, some will diversify into other branches and some will succeed and prosper. But that has always been the case since man first stood on two legs.

Good thread Roger!!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Leonardo]

John my friend,
Thank you for your input and the way you think about my machine.
I do not want to hack the Roger post but would like to take advantage of this opportunity to point out that the Artesà machine do not need any programmer to make it do its job, but what it really need is an engraver who knows what he want the machine will engrave and the way in witch the engraving will be performed.
I developed this machine for the engravers so it will really shine if and artist is at its command.
I will make a post soon to update all of you about the actual Artesà machine and also what we have done in the past two years.
Just a little more about a year ago Galil Motion Control Inc. (witch is the manufacturer of the machine's controller) made me an interview that was published in their SmatMoves newsletter. You can watch there a short movie of the machine engraving an sterling silver bracelet and also read the interview (in a PDF file) witch was written from a technical point of view.
Here is the link: http://www.galilmc.com/support/smartmoves.php?video=artesa

All the best,
Leonardo.

 

[Roger Bleile]

Thanks for the feedback!

I want to thank everyone for your well thought out feedback (even Chris M.)

I think Ray Cover's anology with the "starving artist" sales and fine art makes sense, though in the world of "fine art," artists such as the Pre-Raphaelites are denegrated and dribblers like Jackson Pollack are lauded.

Andrew has a very good point when he said "With public awareness comes more customers to our benches right across the spectrum of the financial classes for custom work." This is what I would like to believe is this case. There have been guns sold with mass produced decoration as long as I have been engraving and it hasn't killed the craft yet. Quite the contrary!

Believe it or not, I have three Beretta comptetion shotguns that have production decoration. A 391 Black-Gold, 687 Silver Pigeon II, and 687 EELL Diamond Pigeon. They are all great shooters and I get complements on them from the folks at the skeet or clays range. Even though I enjoy my hand cut European guns more in the esthetic sense, I have found the rolled in decoration on the Beretta's very durable and because the dies are hand cut by gun engravers at Botegga Giovanelli, they look pretty good. Of course I would prefer to shoot clays with an SO 10 EELL but as someone said, this is not a trade in which to get rich.

When Chris Malouf said "The client who has a custom knife, ring, or rifle made already KNOWS what hand engraving is and that's all that matters." he was spot on. When we get a client into hand engraving there is usually no turning back for them.

I can't argue with Doc when he wrote "There's more money to be made in the long run selling etched and gold plated guns than there will ever be selling hand engraved works of art." BUT if that is what we wanted to do we wouldn't be hand engravers, though like Kurt said we may find ways to use technology to enhance what we do.

Paul chung, It does concern me that if Purdey's can sell a $90,000. gun with etching on it that a precedent could be set for acceptence of such.

Barry and Scott are right on about the future being in the hands of young and upcoming gun enthusiasts. I have been seroiusly interested in guns for 60 years and can remember when engraved pieces held no interest for me. I mostly was interested in military and law enforcement types but I evolved as will some of those just entering the field.

So, I don't hate production decorated guns or those who make them but Marcus really expressed my feeling when he said, "What really annoys me though is when the magazine article writers get hold of a cheap gun and "ooooh" and "arrrrrrgh" over it..." Gun writers who should know better are the most guilty of this and have no excuse. On the other hand there are the gun writers like R.L.Wilson, the late Mario Abbiatico, Marco Nobili, Claude Gaier, and Tom Turpin that have done lots to present the hand engraved gun as a must have for the serious collector or enthusiast.

Leonardo, Thanks for the update on the Artesà.

Kurt brought up some really thought provoking points as usual. When he said "You could write another book..." he is aware that I am doing just that and you all will be hearing more about it in the very near future. :yes

"...knowing that most of the greatest engravers of our time and whom I have looked up to, in this country, have either retired, moved on to something else, or passed away." Chris, I think you and others will soon see that "the greatest" in America are still at work when my next book comes out.

Lastly, the last paragraph of Andrew's last post really says it all for me. Very insightful, as usual.

Thanks again to all who responded to this thread. Keep it coming if you have more to add.

Roger

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

Just as limited edition art prints are produced by the artist or with the help of a skilled printer. These are considered real art even though they are made with the assistance of technology.

If all of you ever get a chance to tour Terry Redlin’s art center in Watertown, South Dakota it's worth the time. He's made a lot of money through the years selling prints made from his original paintings. Although they are still quite pricey as prints go, it puts "art" into the hands of those people that can't afford the thousands of dollars for an original.

There used to be a guy by the name of Joe Ades who sold vegetable peelers on the street in New York City. He lived in an expensive Park Avenue apartment, wore $1000 suits and drank expensive champagne. And, he put his daughter through college at Columbia University. He said ""Never underestimate a small amount of money gathered by hand for 60 years." There is a lot of wisdom in his words.

Perhaps it's better to sell a lot of lower priced pieces of art than always striving for the few sales that are in the thousands of dollars.

People always like things that are hand made and hand crafted. But, there are more average people with average incomes than there are rich dudes with deep pockets.

Just something to ponder on...

 

[richard hall]

Its not all doom and gloom, its also true that people are hurting because of this recession... Most of the engravers on this forum have have invested in themselves, not in wall street, and markets do go up and down in both lines of work. I would guess the average engraver has about $ 10,000 of engraving equipment invested, not to mention their books, plus the engraving courses they attended. I dont think that many will walk away from what they love to do in life. Chris had the right idea before about diverseness in engraving to stay afloat. If you have to engrave furniture hardware on a heirloom, or a log-splitter that is someones pride and joy, it pays the bills even if its not high end.. Like Andrew says, stay positive and you"ll get by...... At one time,both Winchester and Remington diverseified into the pocket-knife business to keep up revenues, they adapted. As far as mass produced engraving coming upon the scene, I think it may just open new markets for the self-employed engravers who think outside of the box. All one has to do , is look at what other engravers on our forum have done in the past, engraving ink pens, woodplanes, horseshoes,flashlights, and even cell phones !!!! The work is there,just may take some imagination....

 

[pilkguns]

.


You can make numerous comparisons. Cars, Cigars, Motorcycles and anything else you’d like a to make a comparison to. I was once a purist, 30 years ago. Today, ANYTHING to achieve the art I want to do, I say saddle up that Tiger and ride him for all he’s worth. If you don’t someone else will.

You can thrive, with technology, or you can die from it.
COLOR]

yep, I bought my first Gravermax because Sam Alfano told me that background work that took 8 hours with a hammer and chisel I could do with the Gravermax in 2. On that basis I bought one knowing that it would pay for itself in less than a year. that was in 1991. I now use a Lindsay Palm Control because I think it does what I want to do more efficiently.
we see it in every aspect of discussions on this forum. How many times have new or better transfer methods been discussed here? or using Acid etch for background removal, is that really different than programming a machine to do it? Or is it only different because the limiting factor of technology was not as great back then and thus required more handwork to finish it.

 

[pilkguns]

I



So, I don't hate production decorated guns or those who make them but Marcus really expressed my feeling when he said, "What really annoys me though is when the magazine article writers get hold of a cheap gun and "ooooh" and "arrrrrrgh" over it..." Gun writers who should know better are the most guilty of this and have no excuse. On the other hand there are the gun writers like R.L.Wilson, the late Mario Abbiatico, Marco Nobili, Claude Gaier, and Tom Turpin that have done lots to present the hand engraved gun as a must have for the serious collector or enthusiast.

I think you are being too modest in leaving your own name out of this list of esteemed gun writers. There is no doubt that your book American Engravers in 1980 was one of the triad of factors contributing to the American Rennaisance of Gun Engraving (ARGE ? LOL) John Rohner and the formation of FEGA being the other two but we will leave that for another thread.

 

[fegarex]

This conversation has come up ever since Winchester started doing commemoratives but mostly once FEGA started. Through all of that engraving not only has survived but the work has gotten much better. It does bother me that some companies call select gold plated items "inlays" but I'm sure they have a legal staff that looks this stuff over and trying to fight them would be a waste of time and money. Roger mentioned there are many gun writers that help promote engraving and that has helped. On the other hand it was also mentioned there are many that don't have a clue. In general I rate gun writers just one notch above class action suit lawyers.... Most of the writers will say as much great about whatever gun they are writing about because they got lots of "perks" for doing the article. The good news is these writers don't usually have any influence on the customer that is going to get engraving done. We all need to do our part to educate the public but I wouldn't get too concerned that any new way of producing mass produced engraving is going to make us obsolete.

 

[Kevin Scott]

Impact on hand engravers

I don't know much about guns, but what has been discussed on this thread about very expensive gun makers using technology to decorate guns at less cost and higher speed allowing much more volume has been happening to the $50,000 and up new watch market starting about 20 years ago. A watch that would take one year to make in the 1930's, now the same maker can make hundreds in one year that to alot of people are the same or better quality than the one made in the 1930's. Almost all of the people buying these new watches don't understand how they are made and how they are different from the old watches, and don't care. The fancy watch magazines rave about these new watches and don't educate about how they are different.
And now the same thinking has been at work on the $5000 and up watch market.
I think it is inevitable that the same thing will happen to the gun market.
I don't own a crystal ball but personally I think all but a handful of true artisan gun engravers are doomed. The few that survive will be the ones with the highest name recognition, in addition to doing work of the highest quality. Most great engravers will be out of luck, and no opportunity for a young person to get in the business unless they adapt to the new technology. Not fair, but that is how I see the future. Not trying to stir up a hornet's nest. Just my opinion based on the watches, but I hope I am wrong. Kevin Scott

 

[John B.]

Thank you to the link to the video demo of your machine, Leonardo.
One of these days I would love to see how to direct the machine to do the work from the layout. As a certified computer dummy I'm sure it would be beyond me.
Best.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Thank-you Roger for your reply. I thought I might prepare you for what might lie ahead with respect to my wacky posts. I'm glad there was qualitative input.


Andrew, you well aware that it was the allure of firearms engraving which got me into engraving. It is my first love in engraving and always will be. It is an unexpected twist of fate that now has made us more successful in other mediums.

Something to ponder is the manufacturers who are increasingly using machine/laser embellishment. The way I see it, if these manufacturers do not value their own product enough to incorporate hand engraving, then how can we? The gap is definitely widening between justifiable 1000+ hour engraveable items and <40 hour items.


Take care,

Chris

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Chris, I don't always think it's the manufacturers as such but the accountants who always want to see maximum profit in the shortest time. They have no soul and are destroying the art of gunmaking. Luckily there are an enlightened few who strive to give of the best. What really gets my goat though, are the gunmakers who employ shoddy craftsmen/women (and that includes poor standard engravers) because they're cheap. They can't see that they are spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar, and the really scary thing is that neither can the client. That is why it is so important that we flood the market with good, high quality engraving. If you feed people crap for long enough then, eventually they will demand crap but the opposite is equally true.