Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
samw . she will be my first . im very excited ...
discussion. new perspective
- Thread starter Jared Eason
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mitch
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
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Hi Jared-
I suggested oil clay/plasticine/plastilina because you can just stick more back on if you remove too much in a spot. it's infinitely reworkable, doesn't need to be kept moist, etc. I'm also going to impose one rule: Please resist the urge to use a tracing of the photo to transfer it to clay. the exercise will be all the more meaningful if you draw it freehand- learning to do that is a huge part of the process.
also, just so we're clear on my motives- I'm not throwing down the gauntlet to show you how little you know or put you in your place. (In fact, i'd like nothing more than for you to surprise me with how well you do.) I do want to give you at least a small glimpse into how much there is to learn in the art & craft of engraving and sincerely hope you accept the challenge in that spirit.
take your time, have fun with it, and congrats on the new dad thing!
I suggested oil clay/plasticine/plastilina because you can just stick more back on if you remove too much in a spot. it's infinitely reworkable, doesn't need to be kept moist, etc. I'm also going to impose one rule: Please resist the urge to use a tracing of the photo to transfer it to clay. the exercise will be all the more meaningful if you draw it freehand- learning to do that is a huge part of the process.
also, just so we're clear on my motives- I'm not throwing down the gauntlet to show you how little you know or put you in your place. (In fact, i'd like nothing more than for you to surprise me with how well you do.) I do want to give you at least a small glimpse into how much there is to learn in the art & craft of engraving and sincerely hope you accept the challenge in that spirit.
take your time, have fun with it, and congrats on the new dad thing!
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Mitch I decided to use clay. I started it last night. I figured it would be more a learning experience to work with the Clay. I free handed the outlines . I also figured it would cheapen the intended learning done with transfer . Yes I am taking this as someone with years of experience teaching a beginner . I sure hope it comes out the way I see it in my head..lol. thanks on the dad thing..
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Like Sam, I agree with Mitch. When you've made the journey to the upper levels of engraving, only then can you truly appreciate the efforts that go into a fine piece of work. There are those who truly appreciate our art and who do know good engraving from bad who aren't engravers but only a fellow engraver can really understand what it takes to create a great engraving work. However, not all engraving has to be 'perfect' in order to be wonderful and beautiful.
I was talking with Chris DeCamillis the other day and we both agreed that if you really look closely, with an engraver's eye, at some of the English scroll of the early part of the 20th century it is often far from perfect. Scrolls might be slightly wonky, the shading of some might be slightly off, and there might not be any back cutting, etc, etc. The engravers' sat at a bench with the action held in a peg and cut with no magnification and often no electricity for lighting and cut commercially, not creating works of art. BUT looked at over all, these pieces of work can look absolutely gorgeous and are full of soul and character.
If every engraving has to be perfect then it might just as well be cut by a machine and computer. It is the little imperfections that give hand engraving it's character and stop it becoming sterile and lifeless. So although you should aim to cut to the best standard you can, I'd say don't get hung up over a little over run or mis-spaced shading line. As engravers we may see these little nuances in other people's work and smile to ourselves that we've seen them but it doesn't necessarily mean that because they're there it's a bad/poor piece of work. It's only after many, many years of living and breathing engraving that you really start to appreciate this and can understand that although there may be "mistakes" or "imperfections" the work can still be of extremely good quality and a joy to look at and, as has already been pointed out, the vast majority of the population would never notice such things anyway.
I was talking with Chris DeCamillis the other day and we both agreed that if you really look closely, with an engraver's eye, at some of the English scroll of the early part of the 20th century it is often far from perfect. Scrolls might be slightly wonky, the shading of some might be slightly off, and there might not be any back cutting, etc, etc. The engravers' sat at a bench with the action held in a peg and cut with no magnification and often no electricity for lighting and cut commercially, not creating works of art. BUT looked at over all, these pieces of work can look absolutely gorgeous and are full of soul and character.
If every engraving has to be perfect then it might just as well be cut by a machine and computer. It is the little imperfections that give hand engraving it's character and stop it becoming sterile and lifeless. So although you should aim to cut to the best standard you can, I'd say don't get hung up over a little over run or mis-spaced shading line. As engravers we may see these little nuances in other people's work and smile to ourselves that we've seen them but it doesn't necessarily mean that because they're there it's a bad/poor piece of work. It's only after many, many years of living and breathing engraving that you really start to appreciate this and can understand that although there may be "mistakes" or "imperfections" the work can still be of extremely good quality and a joy to look at and, as has already been pointed out, the vast majority of the population would never notice such things anyway.
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mitch
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thanks, Marcus. i'd add that there are a few who are phenomenal engravers from the standpoint of technical & mechanical perfection, but are pretty mediocre artists. can copy a photo or painting with unbelievable fidelity, but their own scroll & designs are sterile & lifeless, at best. haven't a clue about the whats & whys of shading or how it's supposed to represent depth, etc., and their occasional attempts at relief sculpting prove it. i'd go so far as to say that, although highly regarded in the upper echelons of the trade, they'd fail miserably at the 'homework assignment' i just gave Jared.
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Well as far as preference goes. I don't personally like plain scroll. I'm not saying anything is wrong with it. Its just plain to me. I guess that's why my " hero" engravers I aspire to be like are those that go outside the box pushing the limits to create a new ( class ) of engravers. I have always done things in every aspect of my life outside the norm. I'm not a follower. But everyone needs inspiration.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Jared, I was replying to this. Like Benny Hill's Chinese guy says "You no rissen!", LOL. Slow down, you're behaving like someone who's just passed their driving test and now thinks they're ready to race Formula 1 or NASCAR chill and listen to what some of us old timers have to say.
Okay, I don't know exactly what engraving you saw and no most of it probably wasn't that good but just because you can see some of the engraver's imperfections that alone does not make it a bad or poor example of engraving. If every scroll was unshaded or they grew incorrectly or there were over runs left, right and centre then yes, that's not good; but engravers are human beings and some slight imperfections are just par for the course when it comes to hand engraving.
At the moment it sounds like you're at the " I've seen the light!" stage. But as the years pass you might see other things in what you may write off as bad engraving or poor form now. I used to laugh at the goofy ducks and pheasants on antique guns but now I've learned and can see that often some of them are cut with the finest of skill and they are of their age so that doesn't mean they're going to look like a photograph.
Okay, scrollwork might not be your thing but don't write it off. It's a classic and is timeless whereas some other stuff might just be a one night stand. That's not to say engraving has to stay as it is though. No. By all means push new boundaries, just don't ignore the past to get to the future or you'll just try to reinvent the wheel.
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Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Marcus . I covers this earlier in this discussion. I'm not saying at all I now can spot all bad stuff and also said along the lines of , I didn't know where, when, how, and what resources the person had that engraved the guns. And I still really enjoyed looking at them. I would be a fool to dismiss scroll. It is the bases where engraving was formed. I was just simply saying , its not to my liking . If I were to engrave something for myself I wouldn't have much in the way of scroll. Scroll beautiful. Like I have seen a lot of people say on here. They don't like lettering but its all part or the art.
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
At this point the very worst engraving you have ever seen , is still far better than what I could do as of now. So who am I to judge. What's the term..... o. Yeah. ( bottom feeder ). Thank you though for your concern for my development . Any thing I take from you guys and gals that will prepare me for my journey is greatly appreciated.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Jared, I do hope that you can see my tongue in my cheek with some of my comments. It was meant to be a serious message in a light hearted manner. You are at a stage where I have also been (many years ago) so I speak from experience. What you are doing is not wrong, I am just pointing out that what you may perceive is poor form might not necessarily be so but you can only come to that conclusion after many years experience. So do by all means continue to observe and with time and patience you will gradually gain a deeper understanding of our craft.
And although you may not particularly like a particular aspect of our art it's as well to be able to study and cut all aspects. That is one of the things that makes a "master" engraver, being competent in all fields. If lettering is your thing, great but if you specialise in that alone you are very limited and clients may want a bit more than just letters. But hey, I'm not about to tell you what you should or shouldn't do, I'm just trying to help you with your engraving studies.
And although you may not particularly like a particular aspect of our art it's as well to be able to study and cut all aspects. That is one of the things that makes a "master" engraver, being competent in all fields. If lettering is your thing, great but if you specialise in that alone you are very limited and clients may want a bit more than just letters. But hey, I'm not about to tell you what you should or shouldn't do, I'm just trying to help you with your engraving studies.
Red Green
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Mitch, regular clay is much easier to work with for art, try it sometime if the need arises. Carves very nice when in leather, moisten a spot on the surface and (re)attach more clay, it stays ready to work and rework from rock hard to mush until it is fired, you have total control. Admittedly it is not as easy to store and handle but its other qualities outweigh the inconvenience. There may be oil clays that will work well but I've never used any, I've been told some that are used for making large molds work fairly well but I was told they 'stink' badly, if you can find commercial modeling clay I'd check what is in it before using it.
Bob
Bob
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Thank you Marcus . I took you how you meant it. Learned my lesson with Mitch not to take things y'all say so bluntly. I really appreciate you efforts to help me along. I just don't want anyone to hear me the wrong way either. I know that learning and being able to do all aspects or engraving will only be to my benefit. I'm not so ignorant to think everything is so cut and dry.
The problem here is probably how I express in text. Never have been one to be able to show what I mean in Text form.
I guess the simply way for me to put it is . Thank you.
The problem here is probably how I express in text. Never have been one to be able to show what I mean in Text form.
I guess the simply way for me to put it is . Thank you.
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
I do have a small question. Being y'all are my elders. Should I bee butting Mr. In front of you names?
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
* be putting
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Exalted One will do...
B.
B.
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Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
A bit much Bob . Sorry...Dominus Solum DeSportula Tyrannoctonus Beluse Ignigena. But will try to remember that. I am from Mississippi, and I hear we are a lil slow..lol
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
Ok how do I upload a pic on here from my phone?
Jared Eason
Elite Cafe Member
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