What makes a "Master"

[kguns]

"Master Engravers." How do they come by the title?

This was a very general question.

Because it was posted here I'm going with the idea of it's implication as applied to the U.S.A.

Fortunately the designation Master has be eclipsed in the US by the FREE MARKET.

If it were a law then this past discussion would pale compared to what a National or World governing body would be like.

Besides this European style system had a long run, now it's personal ability and how much your clients think of your work $$$$$$$$$$ After all, If it don't sell, it ain't art.

I am a past Profession Member of FEGA, I know most of the folks there. You will not find a better group of artists/freinds anywhere.

It's the only group of it's kind. Created in a time when this Art,Trade,Hobby,Folly was on life support.

There is really only one rule.
If you can't play the game by the rules, Don't Play the GAME!

 

[Roger Bleile]

I thought I had answered Bob Easton's original question pretty well in post #3.

I went to the NRA convention, came back and 100 posts later I read the FEGA Master certification and FEGA in general were being put on trial and the lead prosecutor was not only not a member but not even a gun engraver

Nevertheless, I appreciate that this is an open forum and as long as the discussion remains civil it is good to hear various points of view.

I think that Andrew has done an excellent job of responding to issues regarding the master certification. Like him and other members I do not agree 100% with every rule in FEGA but then again I don't agree with everything that issues forth from my church either but it does not cause me to lose the faith.

While I was not involved in the decision to change the name of the certification I was glad to see it done. Because FEGA had avoided the use of the word master in the past, it allowed every hacker with a ball peen hammer and a sharpened nail to style themselves a "master" gun engraver with impunity. Now that FEGA has taken "ownership" of the title some of the undeserving, self proclaimed "masters" may think twice about their use of the word.

At the same time I have expressed my desire to see uncertified, yet recognized, top tier gun engravers receive the certification by some process of aclimation. I realize this is a very difficult issue to address and is in itself frought with perils.

For the record, I also believe that a lapsed master member need only begin paying their dues again to regain the use of the title.

For what is is worth, my idea of a master gun engraver is pretty much in line with what FEGA has set forth. However, when referring to the very top tier whose technical skills are masterful yet excel artistically, I refer to those few as artist-engravers. Of course there was a massive thread about artist or craftsman which was a great discussion in of itself.

I will note here that my comments in this post refer to gun engravers. Some jewelers and others who engrave for a living join FEGA because they have no such organization in their own trade to join. That is fine and they are welcome to share in many of the benefits of membership. At the same time they need to understand that FEGA was founded by and for gun engravers who face challenges not found in other branches of the art. Not the least of which is govermental regulation of the gun trade.

In the end, I hope that discussions and disagreements about organizations and titles never come between any of us and that we on this forum can continue to move forward in fellowship and a spirit of elevating hand engraving to new heights of artistry and public recognition.

CRB

 

[SamW]

Well said Roger! I always consider myself a craftsman and hope my customers come back for more. As for other engravers, gun or otherwise, they are my friends. Engraving is not what I do, it is who I am.

 

[bob easton]

Like Roger, I've been away too and came back surprised at the length of discussion I stirred up. I started down this path with the idea that a set of specific definitions (non-FEGA) might be good for setting the goal to work toward (just as Mike Dirle is doing toward the FEGA goal).

Little did I imagine stoking the opinionated so strongly. Yet, I do find comfort in seeing a wide range of views that elicited a lot of conversation without getting completely out of hand ... something that often happens with electronic communication. OK, it got touchy for a moment or two, when a couple of people got real personal, but even that was really sedate in comparison to some of the places I've been. I think the difference here is the preponderance of experienced adults.

So Sam (Alfano), sorry if this one caused you any anxiety. On the other hand, you have good reason to be proud of the sorts of people who gather here. They're all Masters in my book, with or without certification.

BTW, I was satisfied with the answers way back about #10. THANKS to all.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

A quick question to Andrew, Rex and any of the FEGA reps. Would FEGA ever consider applications for Master status from the international community? The thing that could/would present problems would be paragraph 3 of the guidelines i.e. the bringing of 2 complete firearms to the show, as this can prove very problematical. However, if the other criteria are completed and proof of working as a professional engraver within the firearms industry can be supplied, could we apply for Master status, perhaps with an International suffix? Just a thought.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I didn't participate much in this tread, of course the Master tittle I would like when I'm ready for it.
As Marcus pointing on, and for sure everything is possible, but we here have a law on weapons that is very hard to own a gun.
And if I had some, taking them to the US is difficult, taking them back home even more.

Some big knives would be easier and some engraved boxes even more.

So I'm not in line to solve all of these obstacles, so I understand FEGA stands for Fire arms, and I'm glad being member, but I won't emigrate to the US just for that. :big grin:

arnaud

 

[Kevin P.]

Andrew, I know little of FEGA's history but I believe it's best to air these things out.
I'm not making judgments about anyone and no punishments are being levied. I found the conversation interesting.
It's a he said, he said.
How are those of us more recent to know of these things.
But it's (this forum) not my property; I don't have a say in these things.
But I respectfully disagree with the position taken.
Kevin P.

 

[James Miller]

Marcus,
Have you considered joining The Hand Engravers Association of Great Britain, they are demonstrating at this years Art in Action Fair in July if you are interested. You may know some of the members, one of the members, Wayne Parrott M.A., FIPG is a fine engraver and is also a fellow of The Institute of Professional Goldsmiths as am I. This is their website: www.handengravers.co.uk

James Miller FIPG.

 

[Roger Bleile]

James Miller,

What does FIPG stand for? I tried to google it and this is what I found:
FiPG FreeiPodGuide
FIPG Fraternity Insurance Purchasing Group
FIPG Formed in Place Gasket
FIPG Foam-In-Place Gasketing
FIPG Fujitsu Imaging Products Group, Inc

I'm pretty sure that none of those are the FIPG you are associated with.

Thanks (and sorry for getting OT),

Roger

 

[James Miller]

Roger, FIPG stands for Fellow of The Institute of professional Goldsmiths. You can see more information here http://www.ipgold.org.uk/index.htm
I have been a fellow since 1985. I am also Freeman of The Worshipful Company of Goldsmiths and a Freeman of The City of London, I became a freeman on completion of my indentured apprenticeship as a goldsmith.

James

 

[fegarex]

Marcus,
In the last few years the FEGA has become much more international. At this point the rules allow the international members as long as they comply with the licenses that would be similar to a FFL in the US. As far as shipping guns, it might be some sort of a problem but is seems to be done all the time for the SCI shows and even our show.
That said, we will be reviewing the rules for international members in the near future to see what can be done. It will be something decided on by all of the FEGA Masters so it won't happen tomorrow but we will be working on it.

 

[DKanger]

Rex,
I think you should also address the FFL requirement, or create a special class for those who build and engrave muzzleloading rifles and purposefully avoid getting involved with the whole FFL deal. There are probably more ML engravers than traditional gun engravers and many of them do work that meets or exceeds that of traditional engravers. In the past, many have been instructors at the various NRA gunsmithing schools and a number of well attended classes are given annually. Such a person could also engrave a pre-1898 exempt gun for submission.

Dave

 

[jerrywh]

Dave I like your idea but I must disagree wit hyour statement.

I know a lot of [exclusively] muzzle loading gun engravers. I am familiar with probably all of the best. None of them can meet of exceed the modern gun engravers standards. Some of them do both modern and antique guns, Like myself. Almost all of them have an aversion to modern equipment. Most muzzle loading engravers cannot do modern gun engraving on any acceptable standard. Nearly all modern gun engravers can do muzzle loaders. Very few muzzle loading gun engravers can do gold inlay work, especially to a high standard . The two best muzzle loading engravers I know are Keith Casteel and Probably Judson Brennen. Mark silver doesn't count because he is also a modern gun engraver. Tom Curran is pretty good. Most muzzle loading engravers can only do simple line engraving. From excellent to poor. I know. I have no tact. Sorry. That's just the facts. I’ll take the heat.

 

[fegarex]

Dave and Jerry,
Welcome to my world...

Whenever someone has an idea on what to change someone else has a reason why is shouldn't. Like Andrew said, no matter what we do we can't make everyone happy but we just try to make the most happy.
Rex

 

[jerrywh]

Rex.
I'm not pro or con either way. I just don't believe that exclusivley muzzle loading engravers are equal or exceed modern gun engravers. They can't even come close.
Any muzzle loading engraver can join the guild anytime they wish. Correct?

 

[pilkguns]

yep, ditto Jerrywh on the muzzlelaoder engravers.

As far as international importation of firearms into the the US, obtaining a temporary Form 6 is not a huge deal on the US side, depending on what country you are from. Most Friendly countries to the US, say Germany, Italy, Britian , Belgium, etc. could obtain this with a normal bureacratic delay of 6-8 weeks. Countries not on the US State Department's approved list can be problematic to impossible depending on the reason. I have been involved in this to some degree over the years with my Olympic Shooting team involvements.

Probably the easiest reason to recieve a temporary import permit into the US as a foreigner would be for hunting. so if you wanted to come to FEGA say, you might list hunting, buy a Nevada hunting license to include with your paperwork, and don't tell them that the only hunting you plan to do with the guns is recognition of your peers in a fancy casino. Of course, the paperwork for exporting the gun from your home country has it's own set of bureaucratic nightmares.

Honestly, if FEGA wanted to allow an International Master category, the best solution would be to allow the submission of high quality photographs of every angle of the gun.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi James

I would be very keen to know more about the Hand Engravers Association of Great Britain. I beleive that you had a meeting a couple of months ago to honour Ken Hunt.

To be honest, I was unsure that the association existed until then.

I was hoping via the FEGA Engravers magazine that we could maybe have an exchange of ideas and information between the organisations and form a few informal friendly bonds.

I'll check out the web site.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Marrinan]

This sure has been an interesting thread. Kind of has a life of its own.Check it regularly to see the twists and turns it takes. great dialogs going on-Fred

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Yeah Fred ... I'm reluctant to post as this will probably be the last "word" before it drifts off to page infinity ..

Interesting that I never saw the words "honor" or "fidelity" mentioned in the answers to "What makes a Master".

Talent and skill can carry one a long way but if one rips off customers or doesn't make good on something gone wrong then all that skill becomes nothing fast. I've been called a lot of things but "dishonest" has never been nor ever will be one of them.

I guess that's the final word .... no, this is:

"word"

 

[Andrew Biggs]

How about...................

The Most Humble And Honorable Order Of The Fidelis Firearms Engravers Guild Of America Master Engravers............or TMHAHOOTFFEGAME for short. It does have a certain ring to it and just rolls off the tongue..........and it would look good on the cover of the Engraver magazine

Cheers
Andrew