Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
OK Mitch... only have a few minutes to start it - but I'll get back to it later this evening.
Look for the Elephant thread.
Look for the Elephant thread.
What makes a "Master"
- Thread starter bob easton
- Start date
Brian
How about starting it as a new topic. This episode of the Jerry Springer program has about run it's course, as there are threads within threads within threads.
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Dave, just did that - The Elephant Thread
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Mitch...........No, I'm not offended at all about anything that you, or others, have said in this thread. I'm director blue on the FEGA BOD and my job is to administer the FEGA Engraving Masters thing so it just goes with the territory. I have heard all this before, and will undoubtedly hear it all again. A bit of saber rattling every now and then isn't a bad thing. I don't agree with every single thing that FEGA does either, but I also respect majority rule and certainly not shy about putting ideas forward. Some fly and others don't ..........and I'm happy with that.
I'm genuinely sorry that is your experience/opinion of FEGA .........as mine has been quite different and given me a lot of pleasure. I've met some great people that have been unstinting with their advice and friendship and it has helped with my fledgling engraving career. The best step I have ever taken was to join FEGA and get involved with the magazine and on the BOD. My own personal philosophy is that you only get out of something what you are prepared to put into it.........and I have been paid back in spades!!
Chris.........What can I say. That was before my time and I've heard that story as well. I'm sure that there are others that could chime in with past grievances because I've heard a few others. At some stage of the game you have to build a bridge and get over it.
To be honest I'm also getting a bit sick of this conversation as well. It's starting to go round and round. Change will always happen and FEGA is no exception. It will be different in a 100 years time and so it should be as each generation puts it's own stamp on things. But even then, there will still be those that are displeased or disgruntled for valid or imaginary reasons. But there will also be the others that work hard, do their best and work together for the common good who are as fallible as the next guy by making some good and some not so good decisions. Change is easy to talk about and it's a lot easier to criticize from the outside than it is to muck in and try to make things actually work from the inside.
That's about all I have to say as I'm getting a bit sick of the sound of my own voice on this subject..................now where is that elephant in the room
Cheers
Andrew
I'm genuinely sorry that is your experience/opinion of FEGA .........as mine has been quite different and given me a lot of pleasure. I've met some great people that have been unstinting with their advice and friendship and it has helped with my fledgling engraving career. The best step I have ever taken was to join FEGA and get involved with the magazine and on the BOD. My own personal philosophy is that you only get out of something what you are prepared to put into it.........and I have been paid back in spades!!
Chris.........What can I say. That was before my time and I've heard that story as well. I'm sure that there are others that could chime in with past grievances because I've heard a few others. At some stage of the game you have to build a bridge and get over it.
To be honest I'm also getting a bit sick of this conversation as well. It's starting to go round and round. Change will always happen and FEGA is no exception. It will be different in a 100 years time and so it should be as each generation puts it's own stamp on things. But even then, there will still be those that are displeased or disgruntled for valid or imaginary reasons. But there will also be the others that work hard, do their best and work together for the common good who are as fallible as the next guy by making some good and some not so good decisions. Change is easy to talk about and it's a lot easier to criticize from the outside than it is to muck in and try to make things actually work from the inside.
That's about all I have to say as I'm getting a bit sick of the sound of my own voice on this subject..................now where is that elephant in the room
Cheers
Andrew
I know I tend to rile most of you with my posts and that is not really my intent, (at least not mostly).
The things I say are simply to get people thinking and actually discussing things that should be and need to be discussed, in a frank and straightforward manner rather than “***** footin†around the issues. I did not come from the kindler, gentler generation. (dang this site even has a built in word censor)
What better place than here? We all are tryin to learn and push a difficult, demanding and highly personalized art form even higher than its current level.
I wish to thank Sam, Chris D, Fred Marrinan (good post Fred,) for answering my two “simpleâ€questions.
Thanks also to Marcus and K.C. Steve for chiming in with their thoughts on the re-testing thing.
Oops almost left someone out…Mr. Malouf….you do have a somewhat odd sense of humor, (course I should talk.) I actually enjoyed your portrayal of two “kindly old†engravers. I am at somewhat of a loss though as to which is who?…Keep em comin…dude.
If I have left anyone out…well forgive the tired ole brain cells.
To the rest, jump in the next one! the waters fine!
Back to my cave until the next thing crops up to attract my attention and requires a bit of “rilinâ€.
j.c.
The things I say are simply to get people thinking and actually discussing things that should be and need to be discussed, in a frank and straightforward manner rather than “***** footin†around the issues. I did not come from the kindler, gentler generation. (dang this site even has a built in word censor)
What better place than here? We all are tryin to learn and push a difficult, demanding and highly personalized art form even higher than its current level.
I wish to thank Sam, Chris D, Fred Marrinan (good post Fred,) for answering my two “simpleâ€questions.
Thanks also to Marcus and K.C. Steve for chiming in with their thoughts on the re-testing thing.
Oops almost left someone out…Mr. Malouf….you do have a somewhat odd sense of humor, (course I should talk.) I actually enjoyed your portrayal of two “kindly old†engravers. I am at somewhat of a loss though as to which is who?…Keep em comin…dude.
If I have left anyone out…well forgive the tired ole brain cells.
To the rest, jump in the next one!
the waters fine!Back to my cave until the next thing crops up to attract my attention and requires a bit of “rilinâ€.
j.c.
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
you te'll'em JC
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
thinking about this Andrew, I would say that the time Mitch was in and the time you got involved are two different era's. I think the working memebrs of the early FEGA were by far the majority, wheras now, the hobbyist or wannabe is the clear majority. FEGA was in it's infancy, and there was still a lot of only slightly submerged egos that would pop up and torpedo a discussion disasterously. It was more of a good ole boys club back then, not that they necessarily wanted it to be that, they just had'nt all learned to get along in ways that they wanted to but were unable to at times. I was 21 when came to that first joint ACCG/FEGA show in 1985. And I came as a full-time engraver with some magazine publicity to my credit. But I damn sure was'nt welcomed by some in the crowd. Not neutral, but hostile, telling me I should not be there. Others were the opposite, encouraging me both as a person and giving me pointers on engraviong and I consider them more than family, Ron and Liz, Sam Alfano ,Bob Evans, come to mind immediately, Sam Welch, Ben and Kay Lane and Marty are some others. The guild today, I can't imagine anyone telling a beginner or wannabe engraver that they should'nt be there. It is an entirely different atmosphere.
Along the way, I had issues with FEGA, and I dropped out for a long time, actually after I had Professional Status, but finally came back in at the encouragement of Don Glaser. And I had missed a lot of relatonship time with people i really loved. This year, when Tommy Kaye returned for the first time in twent years, he said something that struck an instant chord in my heart, about his return. He said something to the effect that he has missed a lot of good years with his engraving family because of a few hurt words and misunderstood feelings. And I thought how true that is, that is exactly what I had done on a smaller scale. I won't make that mistake again.
Best friends are the family that you choose.
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Christian DeCamillis
Elite Cafe Member
Rex, The idea behind the rule makes sense and yet it doesn't. By that I mean what does that have to do with retesting? Why not just make them pay the dues they missed and go on. They haven't lost their skill. Since you have stopped publishing the guide, why not change the rule ? You took the time to change the name. By the way what is the reason now for paying higher dues if your a master? The I don't know what happened answer is unacceptable.
As far as the picture you painted of me not wanting to participate or volunteer for that job. I don't remember that, but it could be true and probably because I would have just simply told those that didn't do what they needed. get there pictures in on time. they would either be out of the next printing or we would use the same pictures as before. I also resent the fact that you only tell of me not wanting to help, when in fact I did do the seminar in 2004 and included the plate for sale so more money could be raised for FEGA. It did . In fact you yourself told me that the bulino video and the plate were the highest selling video and casting to date, I don't know if that still holds, but I did that all completly volunteer. and FEGA profited well from it. Which was my intention. I also volunteered for other things at the anual shows. It's interesting to me also that as soon as a new video or book appears FEGA offers it for sale, so members can purchase it from them rather than others, therefore helping FEGA Great idea' Why then has my instructional bulino video never appeared for sale through FEGA?
Andrew as far as bridge building goes today modern bridges are built from both sides and I don't see a bridge starting on the other side from me. I do know that Jason tried to build a bridge back, very recently, but the powers that be just don't seem to have any interest. In my opinion it's their loss .To not have a talent like his on board is a loss for all members. Maybe that's what they want though, Chris
As far as the picture you painted of me not wanting to participate or volunteer for that job. I don't remember that, but it could be true and probably because I would have just simply told those that didn't do what they needed. get there pictures in on time. they would either be out of the next printing or we would use the same pictures as before. I also resent the fact that you only tell of me not wanting to help, when in fact I did do the seminar in 2004 and included the plate for sale so more money could be raised for FEGA. It did . In fact you yourself told me that the bulino video and the plate were the highest selling video and casting to date, I don't know if that still holds, but I did that all completly volunteer. and FEGA profited well from it. Which was my intention. I also volunteered for other things at the anual shows. It's interesting to me also that as soon as a new video or book appears FEGA offers it for sale, so members can purchase it from them rather than others, therefore helping FEGA Great idea' Why then has my instructional bulino video never appeared for sale through FEGA?
Andrew as far as bridge building goes today modern bridges are built from both sides and I don't see a bridge starting on the other side from me. I do know that Jason tried to build a bridge back, very recently, but the powers that be just don't seem to have any interest. In my opinion it's their loss .To not have a talent like his on board is a loss for all members. Maybe that's what they want though, Chris
fegarex
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Chris,
At this point it wasn't a big issue to change a rule for the sake of 2 members. If we made them pay for all back dues I'm sure that would cause issues as well. No matter what we do there will be people that don't like the rules. Our best interest is to make as many as possible happy.
I only mentioned you as I remember that meeting well and how you wanted things changed but offered no help at that time. Yes, the video sells well. Why we didn't offer your video was we were not informed of the release by you and early sales were covered by GRS.
Like Andrew, I get a bit tired of all of this when many of the people complain are not even members. Put in about 1000 hours a year in FEGA like I do to try to keep everyone happy and get back with me.
At this point it wasn't a big issue to change a rule for the sake of 2 members. If we made them pay for all back dues I'm sure that would cause issues as well. No matter what we do there will be people that don't like the rules. Our best interest is to make as many as possible happy.
I only mentioned you as I remember that meeting well and how you wanted things changed but offered no help at that time. Yes, the video sells well. Why we didn't offer your video was we were not informed of the release by you and early sales were covered by GRS.
Like Andrew, I get a bit tired of all of this when many of the people complain are not even members. Put in about 1000 hours a year in FEGA like I do to try to keep everyone happy and get back with me.
Gentlemen: I'd rather not lock this thread. Thanks for your cooperation. / ~Sam
Does this mean free speech is regulated by "cui bono"?
I didn't read anything like 'fire in the theater'
or anyone being flamed?
Did I miss something that would move 'benevolent dictator' to take action?
Kevin P.
I didn't read anything like 'fire in the theater'
or anyone being flamed?
Did I miss something that would move 'benevolent dictator' to take action?
Kevin P.
Kevin: My comment was a cautionary one as I sense things getting warm here.
On another note, the GrandMaster name used by GRS was Marty Rabeno's idea.
On another note, the GrandMaster name used by GRS was Marty Rabeno's idea.
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hope this doesn't ad to the heat - not meant to...
Just reread this whole thread and had some ideas...
I've only ever been to one FEGA members meeting, and I'm not likely to get to another - so I hope it isn't out of line to make these suggestions to the board on this forum?
How about simply having two categories of Masters in the future and allowing the few gentlemen that fell through the cracks back in without "retesting"? Make peace with them...
Have an "Active" category for those who were grandfathered in or have passed the test and ARE currently engraving with their fees paid up.
And an "Inactive" category for those who have taken time off and/or let their membership lapse for whatever reason.
Those who are active would be allowed full privileges including the use of a Master logo on websites and printing - and those who were inactive for whatever reason would not have those privileges until they once again became active...
But they would NOT have to go through the entire induction ceremony to change their status back to "Active".
And I'd still like to see the FFL requirement relaxed/modified. Simply add something that would state that the holder of that individual Master title has or doesn't have the FFL.
There are lots of people who for example engrave parts of guns that do not require the FFL. And what about the black powder guys? They don't need an FFL... yet.
You can keep the requirement that the test is to be passed on firearms of some kind, since it is the "Firearms" Engravers Guild (call it tradition) - but let in anyone who can pass the test - regardless of whether they plan to continue engraving firearms or not. That way the FEGA Master title will truly mean Master Engraver... not specifically Master Engraver with a valid FFL.
As John B would say... "Just my thoughts".
Brian
Just reread this whole thread and had some ideas...
I've only ever been to one FEGA members meeting, and I'm not likely to get to another - so I hope it isn't out of line to make these suggestions to the board on this forum?
How about simply having two categories of Masters in the future and allowing the few gentlemen that fell through the cracks back in without "retesting"? Make peace with them...
Have an "Active" category for those who were grandfathered in or have passed the test and ARE currently engraving with their fees paid up.
And an "Inactive" category for those who have taken time off and/or let their membership lapse for whatever reason.
Those who are active would be allowed full privileges including the use of a Master logo on websites and printing - and those who were inactive for whatever reason would not have those privileges until they once again became active...
But they would NOT have to go through the entire induction ceremony to change their status back to "Active".
And I'd still like to see the FFL requirement relaxed/modified. Simply add something that would state that the holder of that individual Master title has or doesn't have the FFL.
There are lots of people who for example engrave parts of guns that do not require the FFL. And what about the black powder guys? They don't need an FFL... yet.
You can keep the requirement that the test is to be passed on firearms of some kind, since it is the "Firearms" Engravers Guild (call it tradition) - but let in anyone who can pass the test - regardless of whether they plan to continue engraving firearms or not. That way the FEGA Master title will truly mean Master Engraver... not specifically Master Engraver with a valid FFL.
As John B would say... "Just my thoughts".
Brian
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FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
YUP The "Grand Masters" title was my idea. Part of the rationalle behind the name was to distinguish it from the self inflicted titles that some people give themselves and of course these teachers are the masters master.......
James Roettger
Elite Cafe Member
Having the sanctification of one's peers is a certainly a nice thing. However the lack of a universal accreditation system is also one of America's strengths. People who don't fit in with their peers aren't excluded from the practice of the art.
Bill Gates was a college drop out. Einstein's theory of relativity was met with scorn by his peers. Darwin was mocked.
Someone here has said they feel sorry for me for not leaning on the validation of my peers. The simple fact is I just know "you can't please all the people all the time". Ultimately you have to be prepared to stand alone and rest on the practical ways your work touches the world and that is between you and your clients.
Bill Gates was a college drop out. Einstein's theory of relativity was met with scorn by his peers. Darwin was mocked.
Someone here has said they feel sorry for me for not leaning on the validation of my peers. The simple fact is I just know "you can't please all the people all the time". Ultimately you have to be prepared to stand alone and rest on the practical ways your work touches the world and that is between you and your clients.
Yep, "playground monitor" is a good description, Mitch. When you have over 4,000 creative individuals who can chisel for days on a postage stamp-sized area of steel, things can get pretty crazy! We are collectively the oddest bunch of people I've ever known, along with being some of the nicest, most generous and most compassionate as well. Long live weirdness! :banana:
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
An interesting sidebar to the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/crosswords/chess/12lilienthal.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/crosswords/chess/12lilienthal.html
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Kevin P........Free speech is something we all a agree with. But it has it's boundaries. It's not acceptable for 3rd parties to bring up individual cases and then start talking feely on a public forum about them. This puts everyone in a very awkward position and things start getting personal very quickly. I would be very annoyed if people started bringing up my business in such a way. If I choose to do that, then that is a different story. So it is a case of propriety. We were also starting to dip our toes into commercial areas where it has no place to be discussed in public. It is also unfair to single out FEGA BOD members on a public forum and slam them for doing their jobs that they were elected to do............................. This forum is not some sort of Kangaroo court where people can be judge, jury and executioner just because they feel like it.
FEGA is turning 30 years old next year. Quite an achievement for a bunch of strangers that happened to be engravers getting together and passing a hat around and all of them putting in twenty bucks. The newsletter has gone from a mimeographed copy of the minutes to a full blown colour glossy magazine. It is the only magazine dedicated to engraving in the world. It has started a process for engravers to become FEGA Master Engravers which still attracts peoples interest because it represents something to aspire to and a challenge. It is something to be proud of. FEGA has gone from about 20 founding members in the beginning and now has about 600 members of with approximately 75 international members.
FEGA has consistently promoted the free exchange of ideas and techniques and fellowship amongst engravers. If you look on this forum you will see quite a number of the engravers that try helping novices proudly have the FEGA tag at the bottom of their posts. FEGA has an annual convention that promotes fellowship, sharing and actively seeks work for members. FEGA has always freely acknowledged that their are more than a few engravers out there whose work and skill is masterful.
To my mind these things are to be celebrated and good solid foundations to build on. FEGA also acknowledges that there will always be room for improvement in what it does. It's one thing to talk about it.............that's easy. It's quite another thing to get a workable consensus, work through the process and change things for the better without alienating the membership. That takes a lot of time, a lot of effort and a lot of discussion. Instituting change brings on new challenges and problems and all of those have to be worked through before final decisions are made.............and even then, there will be the people that nurture their old wounds and let the poison infect their way of thinking and then there are the eternally disgruntled because things weren't done their way.
It is my job as Director FEGA Blue to manage and administer the FEGA Master Engraver program. It is something that I believe in and will do to the best of my ability. The one thing I will not do is give knee jerk reactions and respond on a public forum by agreeing or disagreeing with any of the matters that have been raised. I believe in working quietly behind the scenes, discussing the topics with the affected parties and finding workable solutions to any changes that may be instigated, or maintaining the status quo if the members decide that is what they want. A part of that means that I respect and support the majority decisions made at the time weather or not I personally agree with them.......................That is doing the job properly as I was elected to do by the members.
Will there be changes?........yes, of course there will. Just as the last 30 years has seen FEGA change so will the next 30 years. That is inevitable.
Cheers
Andrew
FEGA is turning 30 years old next year. Quite an achievement for a bunch of strangers that happened to be engravers getting together and passing a hat around and all of them putting in twenty bucks. The newsletter has gone from a mimeographed copy of the minutes to a full blown colour glossy magazine. It is the only magazine dedicated to engraving in the world. It has started a process for engravers to become FEGA Master Engravers which still attracts peoples interest because it represents something to aspire to and a challenge. It is something to be proud of. FEGA has gone from about 20 founding members in the beginning and now has about 600 members of with approximately 75 international members.
FEGA has consistently promoted the free exchange of ideas and techniques and fellowship amongst engravers. If you look on this forum you will see quite a number of the engravers that try helping novices proudly have the FEGA tag at the bottom of their posts. FEGA has an annual convention that promotes fellowship, sharing and actively seeks work for members. FEGA has always freely acknowledged that their are more than a few engravers out there whose work and skill is masterful.
To my mind these things are to be celebrated and good solid foundations to build on. FEGA also acknowledges that there will always be room for improvement in what it does. It's one thing to talk about it.............that's easy. It's quite another thing to get a workable consensus, work through the process and change things for the better without alienating the membership. That takes a lot of time, a lot of effort and a lot of discussion. Instituting change brings on new challenges and problems and all of those have to be worked through before final decisions are made.............and even then, there will be the people that nurture their old wounds and let the poison infect their way of thinking and then there are the eternally disgruntled because things weren't done their way.
It is my job as Director FEGA Blue to manage and administer the FEGA Master Engraver program. It is something that I believe in and will do to the best of my ability. The one thing I will not do is give knee jerk reactions and respond on a public forum by agreeing or disagreeing with any of the matters that have been raised. I believe in working quietly behind the scenes, discussing the topics with the affected parties and finding workable solutions to any changes that may be instigated, or maintaining the status quo if the members decide that is what they want. A part of that means that I respect and support the majority decisions made at the time weather or not I personally agree with them.......................That is doing the job properly as I was elected to do by the members.
Will there be changes?........yes, of course there will. Just as the last 30 years has seen FEGA change so will the next 30 years. That is inevitable.
Cheers
Andrew
richard hall
Elite Cafe Member
Nicely put Andrew.. aND HONESTLY, you do not need to defend FEGA, its stands on its own merits.. Sure, it would be nice to have papers that stated, Master, but, Iam happy just to be called engraver and create things.. Guys, when the fun goes out of it, get out of it.. Times are hard, that stress puts alot of people on edge,and we squabble, not worth it... If you are low on work, hey, post it, we can all help each other out like good neighbors do....
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