What makes a "Master"

[Marrinan]

JC, etel
I believe that the term grand master was developed by -Bewitched?, The Free Masons?, The Clan? Harry Potter, Chess, Golf and is Used by GRS to describe a select group of instructors that they bring in to provide an opportunity for instruction at the "highest level"- a way they describe what they consider the best of the

I personally go for the Star Wars Grand Master-instructor of the instructors of the Jedi Knights "Yoda"

 

[KCSteve]

In addition to the hierarchy in attaining the title of 'master engraver' status, how does the cafe distinquish between 'junior members' and 'elite members' etc.? Is there a process and progression?

As Keith noted, the 'member level' here in the forum is primarily a post count thing. Heck, why do you think I'm so highly rated?

There are a few 'titles' that have meaning (the Moderators and such) but mostly it's just an indication of how active you've been here.

As to the main thread, it is interesting seeing the difference between the European system where there's a long established and recognized heirarchy and the attempts to provide something similar under the more open setup here in the US.

FEGA, I think, has to require you to have an FFL if you're US based because you cannot legally do gun engraving for hire without having (or being associated with) one. But the BOD might want to consider changing the requirement slightly to something along the lines of "have a legal right to engrave firearms for hire". For the US that means an FFL but opens things up for the International members.

Still leaves open the situation of members who aren't (at least currently) interested in doing guns for hire but who are willing to do one of their own for their demonstration piece. Perhaps some sort of 'Active' modifier for those who are, well... active in the trade so someone who does knives and jewelry could gain the recognition and/or a member could take a break from being legally able to work on guns without losing their status.

And I think JC has a point about being able to rejoin FEGA at the 'Master' level once it's been achieved. I agree that current FEGA membership is a valid requirement for using the 'FEGA Master Engraver' title but I also agree that once that level has been demonstrated it's only FEGA membership that should be a factor in being allowed to use the title.

But these are all just my musings from very far down the depth chart. I do feel that the fact that this does not impact me in any real way allows me to take a more dispassionate look at things than some others but my lack of involvement also means that I'm woefully ignorant of some no doubt important factors. All I can really do is encourage folks to not get too set in their positions and to keep talking. After all, someday I will be in a position for all of this to matter directly to me!

 

[Sam]

About once a year someone starts a Master Engraver thread and it certainly gets lots of participation and views! I've been out of town teaching and it took me awhile to get caught up on the action here. There are many excellent points made.

Master Jeweler: It probably doesn't mean as much to a retail customer as it does to an employer who's seeking someone who is certified as such. It's a tough test and those who have it have proven they have a variety of skills, and there shouldn't be any guesswork as to whether or not they can do what an employer needs. A certified Master Jeweler should get a higher salary because of this. I applaud those who past this difficult test.

Personal goal: The test of "master", whether it be FEGA or in the jewelry field or being a plumber or electrician, can be a nice personal goal. Knock it if you wish, call it foolish and a waste of time, but many people like goals. To each his own. We all know uncertified craftsmen and women who are certainly better than many certified masters, but that's no reason to knock someone who's willing and anxious to jump through the hoops to get the certification.

On the front of Winston Churchill's brochure it says "WINSTON CHURCHILL - MASTER ENGRAVER AND SCULPTOR". Winston never received formal training in hand engraving, but received occasional help from Joseph Fugger. He uses the term Master on his brochure and I seriously doubt anyone sees him as anything less than a master of the craft.

The moral of the story is that if you use the term 'master', you had better be able to deliver the goods.

 

[Sam]

What is a “Grand Masterâ€￾? and Who the hell thought that one up?

JC: A few years back GRS started its GrandMasters Program where they invite some of the best engravers in the world to teach a class at their training facility in Kansas. I don't believe I've heard the term Grand Master used anywhere else in the engraving field.

You should come sometime.

 

[Kevin P.]

Hi j.c.
What is a “Grand Master”? and Who the hell thought that one up?
The chess federation thought that one up.
As to master engraver the title 'master' is an honorific. It comes when someone, by general consensus, works at a level which is masterful.

Conveniently, check out the post of Phil Coogan. Someone who has the self confidence to plan out a years work and has the skills including the ability to design what he has designed that surpasses what he has already accomplished is a master. Phil may not describe himself as a master, but others do. That's the honorific part.
There are many journeymen, but it's the design ability over and above the technical aspects that make a 'master'.

Respectfully,
Kevin

 

[John B.]

Brian, I will email you off line re. this post.

Mitch,
If the Board were to do what you propose and just awarded skilled members the Masters designation they would be accused of being an old boys club that favors some members over others. The dissapointed folks with an over active ego wold scream to high heaven.
It's the devil you do, the devil you don't. Every member of the Board and most FEGA members recognize that there are huge talents that don't apply for Master status.
I could name many engravers, some FEGA members and some not that I believe we nearly all consider masters even though they have never applied for master status.
We elect a Board that serves without pay for their many hours of work and displaced income. They do the best they can for the Guild as a whole but can't please everyone.
Any member can run for the Board and lobby to change the regulations that don't suit them. Give it a go.
Best.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Andrew, I agree with 99.999% of everything you say but I cannot condone the awarding of a FEGA Mastership only to those who continue to pay their subs. You cannot award something and then take it away. It'd be like a University awarding degrees and saying "You can have this degree BUT...... only as long as you continue to pay us on an annual basis." No, one is awarded something like this other than on merit, otherwise it's purely another (very cynical) marketing tool. You cannot say in one breath "He/She is good enough to be a Master Engraver" and then take that away when money no longer changes hands. That is purely wrong!

We are not professional gas fitters or electricians where exams are taken on a continuous basis in order to keep the public safe. We are artists and craftsmen/women.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Brian........My sincere apologies to you. I read it as FEGA were considering a Grand Master status. My misunderstanding........Must be something to do with reading it upside down.

JC........... Yip, to what Sam has said

Marcus........I only administer/manage the existing rules. I don't make them. These rules were set up by the FEGA Master Engravers themselves by majority rule and agreed to at the time. That dosn't mean they can't be changed. There is the usual process for that, same as any other organisation.

As I have repeatedley said, it's not a perfect sysytem and it will evolve even further over time as each generation ads their stamp to it. Any changes would have to be worked through very carefully or you just end up with another set of problems. This takes time and effort and a lot of discussion with all the parties involved.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Leonardo]

Hi all,
I thing that what make a Master (in any trade) is actually his/her own mastery, that surely will be recognized by the other persons looking at his/her work.
Beyond that, and talking about "papers" and personal goals, it is usual in todays world the need of certifications to "demonstrate" the achievement of certain skills levels.
I have no doubt in the FEGA honesty and intention and also the FEGA certification surely is something to be very proud of but, because that, I would like to make a suggestion.
Perhaps it would be even better if FEGA were instituted as an Engraving Certification Entity in a way to certificate any person who want to apply for a Master status.
There are many Certification Entities like, by example, Applus+, TÃœV, UL, etc. that do precisely that. These entities certifies that the applicant complies with certain level of quality, norms, rules, levels, etc. and those certificates have an indisputable value. Furthermore, you do not need to pertain to these organizations to apply for a certification.
Just and idea that I was thinking about.
Best regards to all,
Leonardo.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Hey Andrew,


Apology accepted. While I expect that sort of reply to anything I might write from Mr. Malouf – who has never met me, and apparently will be happy when he hears I have taken my last breath – you have met me, and we have communicated privately and civilly over some years now.

I gotta admit I was more than a little surprised. And I spent a lot of time thinking about and rereading my posts to find anything that could have originated from a rumor. I even thought for a while that there was some rumor that you thought I’d heard, and were referring to, when in fact I hadn’t.

Pretty strange, the things that get interpreted from written words and sometimes taken to mean something else entirely…

Anyway that’s done with. On to another lively thread gentlemen?

How about one of the elephants in the room – the current crash in income and job opportunities that no one seems to want to admit to or talk about?


Brian

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Thanks for that Brian, much appreciated.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Christopher Malouf]

apparently will be happy when he hears I have taken my last breath

Brian

LOL!! That is soooooo not true dude. .... and you have not met me. We would probably get along just fine even though we don't share the same sense of humor (that is if you had one) nor the same zest for the public discussion of "rumor".

Take care ...........

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Ok , Iv've bit my toungh long enough. I would like to as it is said "tell the rest of the story".

The situation in regards to Jason Marchifava is as follows: Jason jumped through all the hoops and obtained what is now known as Master from FEGA. This made him the youngest member to ever obtain the title. His work speaks for itself. He also paid his increased dues, for which he was to be publiushed in the second addition of the proffesional guide. This is what the increased dues was to be used for,that may have changed since. The rules of the orginization change often. He had to send pictures in for that publication. He did so. The first time they were rejected do to the size not being acceptable. He then re submitted new ones and they were ok. During this process, time had run short and he had to make an all out effort to get them in on time. This second time, he did that. These pictures were to also be used on the FEGA web site.,where he would be featured as a master along with all the others. What happened instead is that the second addition of the professional guide was not going to get published, because the people already in it had not sent in new pictures for the second guide. Remember they had two years to do this. They were defended adimently By Rex at the meeting in Reno where I had intended. When I asked why it wouodn't be done? I was told " If they didn't send in there pictures what are we suppose to do?" My opinion is that it shouold have been published with there old pictures. If they didn't bother to do what they needed to then tough luck to them. Instesd they (FEGA) even though they had an established rule bent it and didn't publish it. Jason followed the rules and was punished for that. The second factor here is that the pictures were never put up on the website either. Jason as far as I know continued to pay his dues for two more years and finally became disallusioned with it all and fell off the radar for a couple or more years. When he resurfaced and wanted to rejoin. He was told by Rex that he would have to redo the master test to be reinstated as a master of FEGA. How rediculase is that. He was told "thats the rules"

So you see Andrew this is why there is so much discussion on this subject. As far as getting involved and changing things. Been there done that . It simply doesn't work. Many have tried only to be shut down. I don';t want to be misunderstood here. I'm not saying FEGA is bad and that they haven't done a lot for gun engraving. It like many other orginizations like this started with an idea and don't like change , normally because the powers to be can't let go of all the effort and time they put in to get it started. Suddenly someone comes in and says Hey why don't you do this or that. The hair stands up on the back of the necks of the originators, and they think ,who in the heck does nthis person think they are coming in with all these new ideas after all are hard work? I get that. But, without change things don't progress. Imagine not changing to a cell phone today. There also was a time Andrew, when ther could be no discussion about having other engravings in the magazine like jewelery. Until you came along that would have been a no no. Ask Ron Smith about the comments made before about having jewerly engraving as part of FEGA. Ron started in this field. I know that I am going to hear that this is a volunteer group and we do the best we can. That is no excuse. Being a volunteer does not give one the excuse to do poorly. If you can't do a good job then don't volunteer. Imagine what the outcome would be if all work done by volunteers was performed this way.

What I know about the Grand Master title is that when GRS came up with the idea to have this program.They needed a name. The General manager of GRS was traveling to a show with Barry Lee Hands. As she was trying to brainstorm for a name, It just so happened that Barry Lee was reading a book about Chess. He said to her that in Chess when a person is at the top level of the game they are called Grand Masters, and as you hear often and "that's the rest of the story".

If I have any of this information wrong, please feel free to redact it, so the information expressed here is correct.
Chris

 

[FANCYGUN]

Any artist who looks to their fellow practitioners for approval is looking in the wrong place. Satisfaction can only come from your fans and not your competitors

James
Titles or no titles........If you actually believe what you have said..I do feel very sorry for you. Having the respect and friendship of your competitors is most gratifying and essential for most of us. That is why many of us have become lifetime friends.
I have no further comments to make on this thread which is a very informative one.
Marty

 

[Ray Cover]

I have two agree with Marty on his point. A lot of my customers buy my work because they like what they see but they don't have a clue about the techniques or skill it took to pull it off. My fellow engravers do. When my fellow engravers tell me I hit the nail on the head I know I really did it right.

The fact of the matter is, until the government steps in and controls here in the States, like it apparently does in other countries, the matter is open for personal discretion.

Being of the belief that our gov. is already too big and already thinks itself to be our Mama who needs to take care of us and control every move we make, I hope I never see gov. control of the term Master anything in any trade.

I will retain that little piece of my freedom over having an official title any day.:yes

My 2 cents

Ray

 

[mitch]

Sam- "The moral of the story is that if you use the term 'master', you had better be able to deliver the goods." it's about dang time you finally outed yourself as a complete fraud. "MasterEngraver.com", indeed. go ahead and keep telling folks those illegals living in your basement are just doing your landscaping, but some of us know different.

Chris- I dropped out of the guild at least 20 yrs ago and had been hoping things had changed for the better in the interim, but fear such is not so much the case. we'll have to kick that around some day...

Andrew- I'm sorry if i offended you. i was just trying to make suggestions that might help elevate the status of the Master designation, by eliminating that rather obvious problem of it not recognizing many of the better talents. and btw- approval is STILL a human process now, just with hoops & fees. yeah, there will always be some squealing out of the folks who got in by the old (current) process, but on the other hand, they'd benefit from the increased prestige, too.

 

[Sam]

Sam- "The moral of the story is that if you use the term 'master', you had better be able to deliver the goods." it's about dang time you finally outed yourself as a complete fraud. "MasterEngraver.com", indeed. go ahead and keep telling folks those illegals living in your basement are just doing your landscaping, but some of us know different.

Hah! Basement? In Louisiana?!?! :beat up:

 

[Brian Marshall]

The end of this is slightly off topic, but...

Well, a lot of stuff got said on this thread that probably needed to get said.

And the last thousand or so hits on this thread came after JC riled everyone up with his two questions… They even finally got answered - and some stuff that might not have been known by members of FEGA and the forum in general has been put out in the sunlight.

Personally, I like to see some controversy and heat get injected to these threads every once in a while - and JC is the “Master” at cranking people up. Since I know him fairly well, I can tell you that it isn’t his intent to come off as an a**#+^e. (Well, maybe... just a little bit) Neither ofUs, JC or myself will ever get any prizes for diplomacy, and that’s not likely to change.

He does feel rather strongly - as do I, about people asking for everything to be handed to them on a golden platter. Do your own research, use your own mind and every available resource to try and solve problems first, and THEN when everything you have tried has failed – you have actually learned something! You know what doesn’t work!

Ask politely for help at this point. And most of all, when you get that help, acknowledge and THANK the source who put the effort into writing the solution to your problem and then posting it - profusely and publicly!





I’m gonna guess that no one is interested in a discussion about the “elephant” I mentioned earlier?


Brian

 

[fegarex]

I've been away at the NRA show so I haven't been able to keep up on this.
A few facts...
The rule of having to re-apply if you let membership lapse for more than a year was done many years ago. When we did an overhaul of then "Certified Professional" status, all the current members were sent surveys and then all info was sorted out for about 6 months. Then a vote was made by all the members about what was and wasn't going to happen. The only changes made in the last couple of years was the name change and a "streamline process" to allow the application process to be a bit easier. The rest is how is was before and voted by the members at the time.
As for the reason for the rule on re-applying it was because at the time we published a directory and the members felt we needed a way to keep members from applying one year, get published and then drop out for several but still have the advantage of being published. Since then, the participation in the directory had become difficult and cost to publish became too expensive. Chris, you mentioned if you can't do the job don't volunteer.... I'm sorry, we are relying on the members to get us new pictures and someone to spend lots of time to do that. If you remember, I asked if YOU would do it but you declined. I have no idea why pictures weren't posted online. They should have been.
We didn't make these rules to **** off a few people. We made them to work the best for the group of 600 FEGA members. I don't like or agree with all of them myself but they are made to make the majority happy. As Andrew stated, in a perfect world we could make everyone happy but we would need a LOT more money and a lot more time. Even then, somebody isn't going to like what we do... We try to do the best we can and that is all I can say.

 

[mitch]

"I’m gonna guess that no one is interested in a discussion about the “elephant” I mentioned earlier?"

what the heck, i'll bite...