Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I took it of. Reason: too much about whether I should or not
arnaud
arnaud
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Undoing a lettering engraving
- Thread starter Arnaud Van Tilburgh
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Weldon47
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
AGAIN....I think he did a remarkable job removing the existing engraving. The micro TIG welder (the PUKIII) is pretty amazing, don't you think?!? Very clean work AND filled in with the parent metal (in this case I believe 18K).
Instead of spending lots of time and energy taking Arnaud to task over his commission, why not see how the information he shared can be applied to what YOU do in your shop? Isn't that the real purpose of the Cafe anyhow?
Looks like some very useful info to me.....but maybe I am just a hopeless hillbilly gun engraver!
Weldon
Instead of spending lots of time and energy taking Arnaud to task over his commission, why not see how the information he shared can be applied to what YOU do in your shop? Isn't that the real purpose of the Cafe anyhow?
Looks like some very useful info to me.....but maybe I am just a hopeless hillbilly gun engraver!
Weldon
Red Green
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
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- 391
Ok, so I’m the ugly American,
And perhaps a bit gruff this morning, but when I hear such things I can hear old P.T. Barnum trying to squeeze the last penny out of the suckers. While I’m in no danger of owning an expensive Swiss watch I’m incensed by the very idea that any maker openly admitting to building insufficient products and then making out like they are superior because of it, junk is junk. I would be very uncomfortable thinking I paid what a fine Swiss watch costs and then be told that a .1 mm loss of the case ruined the thing. But if that is the case then I suppose if you own an Audemars watch it should never be worn as it is far too delicate, it needs a glass case of its own, I don’t think the company would like that for a reputation so why such a poor policy?
Bob
And perhaps a bit gruff this morning, but when I hear such things I can hear old P.T. Barnum trying to squeeze the last penny out of the suckers. While I’m in no danger of owning an expensive Swiss watch I’m incensed by the very idea that any maker openly admitting to building insufficient products and then making out like they are superior because of it, junk is junk. I would be very uncomfortable thinking I paid what a fine Swiss watch costs and then be told that a .1 mm loss of the case ruined the thing. But if that is the case then I suppose if you own an Audemars watch it should never be worn as it is far too delicate, it needs a glass case of its own, I don’t think the company would like that for a reputation so why such a poor policy?
Bob
mitch
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
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you make an excellent point, Bob. if a 0.1mm (.004") loss in thickness truly jeopardizes the structural integrity of the watch, then i'd have to say it's unfit for its intended purpose. imho, the finest functional items, be they watches, guns, cars, or what have you, are not only objects of beauty but are fully capable of reasonably withstanding the rigors of appropriate usage. one should be able to wear a nice watch, shoot a nice gun, and drive a nice car without worrying about undue stress on the mechanicals (cosmetic wear is another issue entirely).
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
This is the statement I was responding to in my first post.
I believe this statement to be false. Even if the dealer that owned the watch and the customer that buys the watch do not know it now. Compare the factory stampings on the before and after and it is easy to see how much metal has been removed.
.1mm does not sound like alot, but on a watch it is huge. Many parts inside this watch are smaller than .1mm in diameter. Many are finished to .002mm. The pass -fail range or "go-no go" is very small on this watch. Any part that goes undersize is trashed. Oversized parts are finished to size by hand.
Plus, this .1mm or metal removal is 20% of the thickness of the back. That is huge.
What if someone reduces the gun barrel wall thickness of a Holland and Holland by 20%? Would that gun be safe to operate? What if someone took that gun to Holland and Holland and asked them to repair the trigger? What would Holland and Holland say?
I really do not know the answers to the above questions, since I know little about guns. But it seems to me to be a fair comparison, and a fair question. And some of you may relate better to the problems brought up with this removal of 20% of the case back thickness by comparing it to a gun.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I took it of. Reason: too much about whether I should or not
arnaud
arnaud
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James Roettger
Elite Cafe Member
It would seem to me in the world of watch cases where a ladies 14K Elgin is .25mm thick that this watch still has a "medium" grade thickness. The original .5mm would be luxuriously thick, (not a piece of junk by watch standards) .4 mm a medium healthy thickness and .3 mm thin but still adequate with gentle wear. I would be curious to know more about things that engravers and stones setters might do to disqualify a watch for service. I would assume that just engraving one voids the warranty.
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Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
James, thanks for measuring some cases and bringing this up. It got me thinking, and hope it got others thinking.
I did some quick measurements of some watches laying around. I think that your measurements are accurate, and also, with some caveats, your conclusions.
Obviously what is adequate for a small ladies dress watch is not adequate for a divers watch. How the case is constructed is also a factor. Also, the size of the watch, and how the manufacturing process has work hardened the case. What type of use the watch is intended for.
The case back of the Audemars that I pictured measures .35mm in the center. But at the four corners measures .7mm, and the ring around where the movement sits measures 2.9mm in thickness. The back is all one piece of 18k gold.
Patek Philippe -Tiffany open face thin pocket watch from about 1910-1920 18k: .35mm.
Hamilton 1928 Piping Rock model 14k; .35mm
Pocket watch, minute repeater, open face, top quality but with no name 18k: .55mm
Omega auto dress mans wrist watch, 1950,s 14k: .425mm
Can't think of anything engraving wise that would disqualify a watch from factory service. Other than cuts so deep that they would affect the integrity of the case, or its factory water resistance rating. Or possibly wording etc that was fraudulent.
As far as stone setting, that is quite difficult.
One example of a no no would be putting diamonds in the lugs of a Rolex President. The watch would leak water like a sieve. Some would say that can not be right because that is a Rolex factory option, and the factory diamond lug watch is still as waterproof as one without diamond lugs. But the reason for that is, Rolex makes the case for the diamond lug version different than the non diamond lug version. They do not take a non diamond lug case and add diamonds. Things are not as simple as they may seem at first.
With Rolex, any added diamonds or stones to the case or dial is a no no.
At the other extreme, some expensive Swiss companies sold watches basically unfinished, with settings but no stones, so someone could add their own stones. Doubt if any Swiss companies are still doing this.
Before adding stones, probably should check with the manufacturer first, and then inform customer before doing any work.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
I find this whole thread fascinating.
Arnaud has done a good job as "requested by the customer" and no one is disputing that. It may be that the customer knew no better and it's obvious that Arnaud certainly didn't.
The fascinating part is the wider issues and the way it affects value etc and to be very cautious when working on high end watches as stated by Kevin and JC. I have learnt a lot of valuable information from what they have said and thank them for taking the time to write it and educate us in this area.
I think their advise is universal when getting into the high end and expensive collectors market of anything........................know your subject and tread with caution!!!
If you want to get into the realms of antique arms restoration then you will really see the sparks fly. Just the topic of engraving restoration on an original Colt/Winchester will see some people come to near fatal blows!!!
Cheers
Andrew
Arnaud has done a good job as "requested by the customer" and no one is disputing that. It may be that the customer knew no better and it's obvious that Arnaud certainly didn't.
The fascinating part is the wider issues and the way it affects value etc and to be very cautious when working on high end watches as stated by Kevin and JC. I have learnt a lot of valuable information from what they have said and thank them for taking the time to write it and educate us in this area.
I think their advise is universal when getting into the high end and expensive collectors market of anything........................know your subject and tread with caution!!!
If you want to get into the realms of antique arms restoration then you will really see the sparks fly. Just the topic of engraving restoration on an original Colt/Winchester will see some people come to near fatal blows!!!
Cheers
Andrew
Artemiss
Elite Cafe Member
For my two cents worth, as I stated on page two, i think Arnaud did a great job!
Whilst this thread has been fascinating to follow, I do feel that a new thread should have been started discussing the rights and wrongs.
(Apologies for extending this thread even further)
Jo
Whilst this thread has been fascinating to follow, I do feel that a new thread should have been started discussing the rights and wrongs.
(Apologies for extending this thread even further)
Jo
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Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
I think the watch was lucky enough to have a skilled goldsmith like Arnaud carry out this job..could have been worse.
Since the original engraving already defaced the back i think the watch now is much more re-sellable but not worth any more or less.
So long as the new owner is made aware of whats been done i can`t see a problem, after all how often do you look at the back of a watch anyway.
Just to add a story.. a few years ago shortly before moving to Finland, i was given a ladies 18ct rolex bracelet to set 6 tiny diamonds in each link.
After drilling the first two holes we realised the metal was way to thin to support even these small stones!
Luckily the goldsmith, who was committed to the job was skillfull enough to overlay each link with half chenier so that it he`s work was not noticeable.
I flew back to the UK a few weeks later to set the stones & everyone was happy with the result.
So don`t be tempted to add stones to a standard rolex bracelet, they are (or at least this one was) ultra thin & hollow!
Since the original engraving already defaced the back i think the watch now is much more re-sellable but not worth any more or less.
So long as the new owner is made aware of whats been done i can`t see a problem, after all how often do you look at the back of a watch anyway.
Just to add a story.. a few years ago shortly before moving to Finland, i was given a ladies 18ct rolex bracelet to set 6 tiny diamonds in each link.
After drilling the first two holes we realised the metal was way to thin to support even these small stones!
Luckily the goldsmith, who was committed to the job was skillfull enough to overlay each link with half chenier so that it he`s work was not noticeable.
I flew back to the UK a few weeks later to set the stones & everyone was happy with the result.
So don`t be tempted to add stones to a standard rolex bracelet, they are (or at least this one was) ultra thin & hollow!
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Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Chris, I would normally agree with you but if Audemars will not offer service to anything that seems to have been repaired out of house (and there's only one real way to test this out isn't there?), if it needs officially servicing or repairing in any way then it seems that they won't touch it so the watch owner will be left with a very expensive objet d'art as it cannot be repaired anywhere other than at Audemars' facility.
If Kevin is correct (and I have no reason to doubt that he's not), as he has so eloquently explained, then that repair and removal of metal (only .1mm but if that's equal to 20% of the thickness then that's a lot of material relatively speaking) will have devalued the watch tremendously. That is not to say that Arnaud has not done a terrific job, he has. But this thread has deviated (and I don't agree that it should have gone into another thread as this is all linked to the repair) and I for one did not know about Audemars Piguet "rules". So this is an incredibly interesting thread.
It doesn't really matter what we actually think about the repair and how well it turned out, it's the consequences of such a repair. And neither does it matter whether or not you like Audemar Piguet's "rules", if you've enough money to buy such a high end item in the first place then you've got enough dough to send it back to Audemars for servicing. If you bought a Bentley would you take it to your local garage to be serviced? No, you'd want the car serviced by the book by an authorised dealer and cost would not matter.
In all honesty, reading between the lines the conclusion I come to is that it looks like this "dealer" is trying to maximise a profit by "repairing" the back as cheaply as possible. He didn't want to go to the expense of having it properly colour matched and laser welded, neither did he want to buy a new back. From how Arnaud explains the attitude of some of these diamond dealers I'm willing to bet the repair won't be explained to the buyer. This would be a real case of caveat emptor.
If Kevin is correct (and I have no reason to doubt that he's not), as he has so eloquently explained, then that repair and removal of metal (only .1mm but if that's equal to 20% of the thickness then that's a lot of material relatively speaking) will have devalued the watch tremendously. That is not to say that Arnaud has not done a terrific job, he has. But this thread has deviated (and I don't agree that it should have gone into another thread as this is all linked to the repair) and I for one did not know about Audemars Piguet "rules". So this is an incredibly interesting thread.
It doesn't really matter what we actually think about the repair and how well it turned out, it's the consequences of such a repair. And neither does it matter whether or not you like Audemar Piguet's "rules", if you've enough money to buy such a high end item in the first place then you've got enough dough to send it back to Audemars for servicing. If you bought a Bentley would you take it to your local garage to be serviced? No, you'd want the car serviced by the book by an authorised dealer and cost would not matter.
In all honesty, reading between the lines the conclusion I come to is that it looks like this "dealer" is trying to maximise a profit by "repairing" the back as cheaply as possible. He didn't want to go to the expense of having it properly colour matched and laser welded, neither did he want to buy a new back. From how Arnaud explains the attitude of some of these diamond dealers I'm willing to bet the repair won't be explained to the buyer. This would be a real case of caveat emptor.
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Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
I would expect Audemars to service the watch, wether they insist on a new back or not since the mechanism has not been tampered with.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I don't agree Marcus. First of all I didn't push the critique request button. It is there to protect those who' s customers mule read those posts. So whether or not one should this kind of repairs was not my question.
So it should have been another tread about yes or no.
Now this tread is about a sort of illegal repair I did.
If it would have been a golden Omega it would not have been the same.
I understand most of you find this interesting, but still it is like high jacking my tread showing how I moved gold for undoing an engraving.
And in a way to me it be the same when I would say: ho nice engraved H&H, but you engraved the screw as well, could cause problems as there is now 10% less metal on that screw.
Might sound stupid, but that could cause problems unscrewing.
And I have seen sculpted parts on a H&H that sure looks good, but made that particular part weaker.
So I would have permitted in my opinion when I had asked: do you think I did a good job? But I didn't
Arnaud
So it should have been another tread about yes or no.
Now this tread is about a sort of illegal repair I did.
If it would have been a golden Omega it would not have been the same.
I understand most of you find this interesting, but still it is like high jacking my tread showing how I moved gold for undoing an engraving.
And in a way to me it be the same when I would say: ho nice engraved H&H, but you engraved the screw as well, could cause problems as there is now 10% less metal on that screw.
Might sound stupid, but that could cause problems unscrewing.
And I have seen sculpted parts on a H&H that sure looks good, but made that particular part weaker.
So I would have permitted in my opinion when I had asked: do you think I did a good job? But I didn't
Arnaud
tundratrekers@mtaonline.n
Elite Cafe Member
Arnaud,
If you are upset,didn't want discussion on this,why post it.
This has become one of the most informative and interesting threads in a while.
As far a critique button,I am surprised you feel that way.
Where else ,other than Audemars(?)would you ever get this info.?
Surely not from your customer.
If you worry about customers looking here,why post it.
Heres the best fix!
Stop allowing any discussion,and turn this forum into and photo hosting site only.
No like button,no critique button,no moderators,nothing but pictures,sounds boring,doesn't it.
mike
If you are upset,didn't want discussion on this,why post it.
This has become one of the most informative and interesting threads in a while.
As far a critique button,I am surprised you feel that way.
Where else ,other than Audemars(?)would you ever get this info.?
Surely not from your customer.
If you worry about customers looking here,why post it.
Heres the best fix!
Stop allowing any discussion,and turn this forum into and photo hosting site only.
No like button,no critique button,no moderators,nothing but pictures,sounds boring,doesn't it.
mike
Jim Kelso
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 198
Arnaud has made his position abundantly clear. If others keep pressing the point, insisting that their differing opinion, which everyone also understands, is correct, you're going to get this shut down, I wager. Everyone has a slightly different take on it. Just human nature. It's fine to disagree but don't insist on having to have the last word, please.
Jim
Jim
Thanks, Jim. Actually I have the last word, and the last word is for everyone to let this go. Arnaud did a great job on the removal of the lettering, which is what this thread is about. Those that don't think it should have been removed have made their points. Those that think it's ok have made their points.
Give it a rest.
Give it a rest.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Mike I can handle any discussion. But there are rules here. And if you force me to really fight back, I will be banned from this forum.
And if as you say "This has become one of the most informative and interesting threads in a while" why then encouraging me to stop posting?
And most of the information given here on the Swiss Watch Brands protecting their Brand, I already knew.
tread probably closed
And if as you say "This has become one of the most informative and interesting threads in a while" why then encouraging me to stop posting?
And most of the information given here on the Swiss Watch Brands protecting their Brand, I already knew.
tread probably closed
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
Chris, What I have been trying to say is the swiss companies look at the entire watch, not just the part that needs repair. If they see something they do not like, even if the owner is fine with it, they will not work on any part of the watch unless all things are corrected. With Rolex and most other companies you have other options. With a Audemars Piquet perpetual calender you really don't have any other options.
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
Or, only allow "Atta boys"
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