Darren
Elite Cafe Member
Beautiful restoration to the back piece of the watch Arnaud. I am sure the costumer was very pleased. Great Job!
Undoing a lettering engraving
- Thread starter Arnaud Van Tilburgh
- Start date
- Status
Arnaud,
As I stated, my post was not directed at you or your efforts personally.
My post was also not about how well something is done, rather that it should be done at all.
Setting stones on an existing object, one is creating a new product. I do not have a problem with that.
Even altering a designer dress one is in effect creating a new product….. altering it back…. to sell as a “second hand original†would be where I would have the problem.
To use the firearm thing to put my post in perspective…
I have a H &H firearm engraved by whoever…I want the engraving removed, so I can sell it as an “original second hand†blank H&H… Even if someone does a job that will “fool the experts†… now the rifle is altered and filled with “junk†that H&H did not put there in its manufacturing process.
H&H sure isn’t going to like what has been done to their product!
The unsuspecting /uninformed etc. BUYER of this “second hand†piece… will perceive his purchase as something H&H made . The buyer will find out eventually and say “ H&H sure made a crappy gun hereâ€.
thus the companies reputation will suffer.
(Human nature will not allow the buyer to direct fault at the unscrupulous second hand dealer)
Same holds for Audemar’s. In this case it is even worse as the back is “formally/legally†hallmarked 18kt.
…..Which it now no longer is.
j.c.
As I stated, my post was not directed at you or your efforts personally.
My post was also not about how well something is done, rather that it should be done at all.
Setting stones on an existing object, one is creating a new product. I do not have a problem with that.
Even altering a designer dress one is in effect creating a new product….. altering it back…. to sell as a “second hand original†would be where I would have the problem.
To use the firearm thing to put my post in perspective…
I have a H &H firearm engraved by whoever…I want the engraving removed, so I can sell it as an “original second hand†blank H&H… Even if someone does a job that will “fool the experts†… now the rifle is altered and filled with “junk†that H&H did not put there in its manufacturing process.
H&H sure isn’t going to like what has been done to their product!
The unsuspecting /uninformed etc. BUYER of this “second hand†piece… will perceive his purchase as something H&H made . The buyer will find out eventually and say “ H&H sure made a crappy gun hereâ€.
thus the companies reputation will suffer.
(Human nature will not allow the buyer to direct fault at the unscrupulous second hand dealer)
Same holds for Audemar’s. In this case it is even worse as the back is “formally/legally†hallmarked 18kt.
…..Which it now no longer is.
j.c.
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
I understand people disagreeing with my post, and am fine with it.
But you are not taking some things into consideration. This is not just a watch that someone buys "to tell the hours with" as Arnaud said, and not even just a Audemars Piquet. This is a perpetual calendar, which means it knows which months have 30 days or 31 days, takes into account February and leap year. Also accurately tracks the phases of the moon. All automatically with no adjustments. It is a marvel of miniature engineering and workmanship. And all done mechanically with gears. Each piece of the movement is hand finished to perfection. Even though nobody sees it except the watchmaker who takes the watch apart. When new, I believe the list price was over $20,000 USA. For over 125 years Audemars has produced nothing but highest quality watches.
Due to its complexity, 99.9% of Americans who call themselves watchmakers are not qualified to work on this watch. But even if you do find one, Audemars Piquet will not sell any replacement parts to independent American watchmakers. Believe the situation is the same in Europe, or not much different. That leaves the owner about the only option to send the watch to Audemars Piquet for service.
Audemars will take one look at this watch and ask "who ruined our watch!!". They will not work on the watch unless the customer agrees to pay for a new back. Sound unfair? Maybe it is. But reread j.c. post above. They do not want a customer to badmouth their watch, saying Audemars cut corners on the amount of gold used on the back, leaving the back springy and easily dented. Remember, Arnaud says he removed approximently 20% of the thickness of the back. How is the customer going to feel now, even if before he he did not know better before. My guess is he is going back to the person he bought it from, who is going to go back to Arnaud.
Arnaud comparing this watch to a Phil Coggan bulino, or an H+H gun is actually not a bad comparison.
Plus, the job of removing the inscription could have been done to Audemars satisfaction, like I explained in my first post. And they would work on the watch afterwards.
There is even more things involved here, but won't get into them.
But you are not taking some things into consideration. This is not just a watch that someone buys "to tell the hours with" as Arnaud said, and not even just a Audemars Piquet. This is a perpetual calendar, which means it knows which months have 30 days or 31 days, takes into account February and leap year. Also accurately tracks the phases of the moon. All automatically with no adjustments. It is a marvel of miniature engineering and workmanship. And all done mechanically with gears. Each piece of the movement is hand finished to perfection. Even though nobody sees it except the watchmaker who takes the watch apart. When new, I believe the list price was over $20,000 USA. For over 125 years Audemars has produced nothing but highest quality watches.
Due to its complexity, 99.9% of Americans who call themselves watchmakers are not qualified to work on this watch. But even if you do find one, Audemars Piquet will not sell any replacement parts to independent American watchmakers. Believe the situation is the same in Europe, or not much different. That leaves the owner about the only option to send the watch to Audemars Piquet for service.
Audemars will take one look at this watch and ask "who ruined our watch!!". They will not work on the watch unless the customer agrees to pay for a new back. Sound unfair? Maybe it is. But reread j.c. post above. They do not want a customer to badmouth their watch, saying Audemars cut corners on the amount of gold used on the back, leaving the back springy and easily dented. Remember, Arnaud says he removed approximently 20% of the thickness of the back. How is the customer going to feel now, even if before he he did not know better before. My guess is he is going back to the person he bought it from, who is going to go back to Arnaud.
Arnaud comparing this watch to a Phil Coggan bulino, or an H+H gun is actually not a bad comparison.
Plus, the job of removing the inscription could have been done to Audemars satisfaction, like I explained in my first post. And they would work on the watch afterwards.
There is even more things involved here, but won't get into them.
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Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I took it of. Reason: too much about whether I should or not
arnaud
arnaud
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Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
This is a very interesting thread. From Arnaud's point of view he's showing us what can be achieved with a PUK welder and I, for one, think the results are pretty amazing. But yes, I can see a definite lessening of the depth on the lettering and if this .1mm = 20% then that is a huge amount (relatively speaking) of metal removed and this must have an effect on the value.
So Kevin, would it have been better to leave the engraving on the watch back or not? Either way it would appear that there will be a problem when it comes to reselling a watch of this calibre so it's a bit of a Catch 22 situation unless a new back is purchased at huge expense.
And I do see where JC is coming from if by the removal of the engraving it is then sold as "second hand original" and the lack of metal is due to everyday wear and tear. I'm not pointing any fingers or accusing anyone but there are people out there who would try to deceive. But so long as it was sold with the caveat that it wasn't the "original condition" back, and the value reflects this, I can't personally see a problem.
As for comparing to guns? Guns are a bit like cars. If you crash your car or scratch the paintwork you don't return it to the factory, a body shop will put it right. With guns there are many instances where damaged or worn engraving has been struck off and the action re-engraved. Does it affect values? Possibly, but it's probably not worth any less than a completely worn out engraving that no one wants.
The subject that is actually engraved is of far more importance. A few years ago I saw an old gun which had been in storage for many years in a gun shop. It was brand new but nobody wanted it and they couldn't sell it. Why? Because they'd sent it to Italy to be engraved. The engraving was lovely with English game scenes on the locks but they'd put a spinone on the underside, not a lab or a spaniel which would have sold easily, a bloody spinone which no one in England shoots over. Bar striking the engraving off and starting again they were stuck. It wasn't financially viable as a project because the cost of 2 engraving jobs would mean there was no profit in the gun (in fact they'd lose a lot of money) so basically it was a right off.
I've never heard of a gun company getting upset if an old gun of theirs has been re engraved. It's just that it won't tally with what is in the records if at some date in the future a potential customer checks it out and it could possibly (depending on who it's by, how well it's executed, and what it's been re engraved with) have an effect on value just as new barrels by A. N. Other also does.
Barrels by anyone other than the gunmaker has a significant affect on value. It doesn't mean they are less well made just that, by law, they cannot put the makers name on them and, as we know, branding counts for a lot. What it does mean though is that for the person who wants to shoot a top class gun can often find a bargain so long as they don't mind it not being "original".
So Kevin, would it have been better to leave the engraving on the watch back or not? Either way it would appear that there will be a problem when it comes to reselling a watch of this calibre so it's a bit of a Catch 22 situation unless a new back is purchased at huge expense.
And I do see where JC is coming from if by the removal of the engraving it is then sold as "second hand original" and the lack of metal is due to everyday wear and tear. I'm not pointing any fingers or accusing anyone but there are people out there who would try to deceive. But so long as it was sold with the caveat that it wasn't the "original condition" back, and the value reflects this, I can't personally see a problem.
As for comparing to guns? Guns are a bit like cars. If you crash your car or scratch the paintwork you don't return it to the factory, a body shop will put it right. With guns there are many instances where damaged or worn engraving has been struck off and the action re-engraved. Does it affect values? Possibly, but it's probably not worth any less than a completely worn out engraving that no one wants.
The subject that is actually engraved is of far more importance. A few years ago I saw an old gun which had been in storage for many years in a gun shop. It was brand new but nobody wanted it and they couldn't sell it. Why? Because they'd sent it to Italy to be engraved. The engraving was lovely with English game scenes on the locks but they'd put a spinone on the underside, not a lab or a spaniel which would have sold easily, a bloody spinone which no one in England shoots over. Bar striking the engraving off and starting again they were stuck. It wasn't financially viable as a project because the cost of 2 engraving jobs would mean there was no profit in the gun (in fact they'd lose a lot of money) so basically it was a right off.
I've never heard of a gun company getting upset if an old gun of theirs has been re engraved. It's just that it won't tally with what is in the records if at some date in the future a potential customer checks it out and it could possibly (depending on who it's by, how well it's executed, and what it's been re engraved with) have an effect on value just as new barrels by A. N. Other also does.
Barrels by anyone other than the gunmaker has a significant affect on value. It doesn't mean they are less well made just that, by law, they cannot put the makers name on them and, as we know, branding counts for a lot. What it does mean though is that for the person who wants to shoot a top class gun can often find a bargain so long as they don't mind it not being "original".
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Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
Here is the watch mentioned in my last post. I was asked by a regular customer to make an offer.
I deducted for the condition of the dial, the wrong style crown, and a mechanical issue.
But I did not make any deduction for the monogram and the date inscription. I would not have paid any more for the watch if it never had an inscription. Why?? Strictly a business decision. Because many collectors like a well done monogram etc even though it can not be tied to any famous person or event. It is part of the history of the watch and they appreciate the workmanship and design.
If it was poorly cut or designed, I would have deducted value.
sorry, the photos are lousy, but I hope you see what I mean.
I deducted for the condition of the dial, the wrong style crown, and a mechanical issue.
But I did not make any deduction for the monogram and the date inscription. I would not have paid any more for the watch if it never had an inscription. Why?? Strictly a business decision. Because many collectors like a well done monogram etc even though it can not be tied to any famous person or event. It is part of the history of the watch and they appreciate the workmanship and design.
If it was poorly cut or designed, I would have deducted value.
sorry, the photos are lousy, but I hope you see what I mean.
Attachments
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P1000218.jpg -
P1000219.jpg
Darren
Elite Cafe Member
WOW, can we not see a really great piece of restoration work and not get all critical. No one was asked for there personal opinions on whether or not it was the correct way to proceed. The job that was done stands on it's own merits and thats all we need to know. damn people....... really?
tundratrekers@mtaonline.n
Elite Cafe Member
Darren, sounds like he hit a nerve.?
You don't have to read every post.
This is priceless information from a dealer/collectors perspective.
After all,they are the paycheck,no?
Maybe he should have started a new thread.
After all,Arnaud is one who loves the truth.
mike
You don't have to read every post.
This is priceless information from a dealer/collectors perspective.
After all,they are the paycheck,no?
Maybe he should have started a new thread.
After all,Arnaud is one who loves the truth.
mike
James Roettger
Elite Cafe Member
I think the most informative note of this thread is learning from the watch experts that the alteration on the back may be a stumbling block to receiving service from Audemars. Preserving the serviceability of the watch would have to be the first priority in maintaining it's value.
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tundratrekers@mtaonline.n
Elite Cafe Member
Also to prevent the guy from giving you a bad name for doing what he asked.
In case he has trouble later.
Word of mouth works for good and bad.
This info. will save future work,and preserve a good reputation,or keep a bad one away.
Might impress the dealer if you could give him this info.,before the job,then can make an informed decision.
But,unless Arnaud passed himself off as an expert watch man,I don't think its his fault.
mike
In case he has trouble later.
Word of mouth works for good and bad.
This info. will save future work,and preserve a good reputation,or keep a bad one away.
Might impress the dealer if you could give him this info.,before the job,then can make an informed decision.
But,unless Arnaud passed himself off as an expert watch man,I don't think its his fault.
mike
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Darren, I don't think there has been any criticism of Arnaud's work as such. He did as he was asked and hopefully it will be the "dealer" that will take the hit. Kevin's advice is invaluable here and I for one learned something today. Imagine if Arnaud had bought the watch or inherited it and then he'd removed the engraving only to find later that he had ruined the watches value and saleability? I have to disagree with your comments. This is a lesson to us all.
Kevin, I stand corrected with my previous comments. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I never knew Audemars had such stringent criteria. I know you said that this doesn't apply to steel cased watches but does your advice/commentary apply in the case of all high end precious metal watches? For example, would Patek Philippe or Greubel Forsey have the same outlook? I don't know whether other watch companies allow servicing out of house and I guess this makes a big difference?
Kevin, I stand corrected with my previous comments. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I never knew Audemars had such stringent criteria. I know you said that this doesn't apply to steel cased watches but does your advice/commentary apply in the case of all high end precious metal watches? For example, would Patek Philippe or Greubel Forsey have the same outlook? I don't know whether other watch companies allow servicing out of house and I guess this makes a big difference?
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I took it of. Reason: too much about whether I should or not
arnaud
arnaud
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Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I took it of. Reason: too much about whether I should or not
arnaud
arnaud
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Jeroen
Member
I can follow/understand all the points made here, but I would like to make two remarks here on the following:
"… now the rifle is altered and filled with “junk†that H&H did not put there in its manufacturing process..."
"Same holds for Audemar’s. In this case it is even worse as the back is “formally/legally†hallmarked 18kt.…..Which it now no longer is."
j.c.
1. Marcus Hunt already explained briefly how the PUK works, what it does: it's NOT soldering, as JC says, nor 'putting junk in it'. It moves the material around, it's TIG-welding. So no other or new material is put in. This means there is as much gold in the back as there was before. (Okay, the stones and sandpaper will have removed some) Or there is as less gold as there was before; 'less' because of the engraving that allready was there.
2. As no other material was added, 18kt remains 18kt.
As for the AudemarPiguet-policy: I agree on comparing that to Mercedes, giving garantee only if 'original parts' are placed by an 'official dealer'. You can be pro or contra, but it's a fact: for most people, it's easier to believe 'papers' and 'officials' than to gather enough knowledge to be able to judge themselves. And it's those 'most people' that are the biggest part of the customers... but not all of them.
Jeroen
"… now the rifle is altered and filled with “junk†that H&H did not put there in its manufacturing process..."
"Same holds for Audemar’s. In this case it is even worse as the back is “formally/legally†hallmarked 18kt.…..Which it now no longer is."
j.c.
1. Marcus Hunt already explained briefly how the PUK works, what it does: it's NOT soldering, as JC says, nor 'putting junk in it'. It moves the material around, it's TIG-welding. So no other or new material is put in. This means there is as much gold in the back as there was before. (Okay, the stones and sandpaper will have removed some) Or there is as less gold as there was before; 'less' because of the engraving that allready was there.
2. As no other material was added, 18kt remains 18kt.
As for the AudemarPiguet-policy: I agree on comparing that to Mercedes, giving garantee only if 'original parts' are placed by an 'official dealer'. You can be pro or contra, but it's a fact: for most people, it's easier to believe 'papers' and 'officials' than to gather enough knowledge to be able to judge themselves. And it's those 'most people' that are the biggest part of the customers... but not all of them.
Jeroen
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
To clarify:
Almost all the Swiss companies, lower priced to higher priced, have strict policies about what they will or not do when a watch they made comes to their service center.
What they look at are: What do we have to do to return this watch to its original operating specifications, and guaranteeing it, including time keeping, water resistance, and integrity of the case? By "integrity of the case", they mean: does the case protect the internal parts as well as when the watch was new? Is it as strong as is was when new?
Why do they care? Because they are looking to protect their brand image and reputation. Most of the companies will not do "partial jobs".
Their criteria applies regardless of what the case is made of. Or even how old the watch is. Or what the watch cost when new.
For many watches it does not matter to much. If the factory refuses to service the watch unless something like a case back is replaced, the owner has other options.
For some brands it is a real problem. Some, not much of a problem. Brietling for example: An independent watchmaker can buy non original replacement parts for the movement. But he can not buy any part that has a Brietling logo like a crown or sweep hand. He can buy hands and crowns made to replace the original, look almost the same, but will not have the Brietling logo. Some customers will accept this, some will not.
Arnaud's watch is much different. The list price on a watch like that is now around $30,000 to $35,000. It is a special movement as I explained before. Audemars will not sell parts for it to independent watchmakers. No other sources for the parts. Also, it is a very complicated movement as I explained before. 99.9% of all Americans who call themselves watchmakers are not qualified to work on this watch.
So, your are stuck with sending the watch to Audemars for service or repairs. And you have to go by Audermars rules whether you like them or not, agree with them or not, if you what your watch to be serviced or repaired. You really don't have any other options. This particular Audemars is not like a car.
Audemars is going to say: The back has been made approximately 20% thinner. It now will not resist dents as it was when new. The case back is now springy and soft. Possibly can not return to same water resistance specifications as new. Plus, it it now not up to Audemars quality standards, because it looks like we got stingy on the the amount of gold we used to make the case. We will not do any work on the watch unless the case back is replaced.
Whether or not these policies are fair, is another discussion. I am just explaining the Swiss point of view, not defending it.
Almost all the Swiss companies, lower priced to higher priced, have strict policies about what they will or not do when a watch they made comes to their service center.
What they look at are: What do we have to do to return this watch to its original operating specifications, and guaranteeing it, including time keeping, water resistance, and integrity of the case? By "integrity of the case", they mean: does the case protect the internal parts as well as when the watch was new? Is it as strong as is was when new?
Why do they care? Because they are looking to protect their brand image and reputation. Most of the companies will not do "partial jobs".
Their criteria applies regardless of what the case is made of. Or even how old the watch is. Or what the watch cost when new.
For many watches it does not matter to much. If the factory refuses to service the watch unless something like a case back is replaced, the owner has other options.
For some brands it is a real problem. Some, not much of a problem. Brietling for example: An independent watchmaker can buy non original replacement parts for the movement. But he can not buy any part that has a Brietling logo like a crown or sweep hand. He can buy hands and crowns made to replace the original, look almost the same, but will not have the Brietling logo. Some customers will accept this, some will not.
Arnaud's watch is much different. The list price on a watch like that is now around $30,000 to $35,000. It is a special movement as I explained before. Audemars will not sell parts for it to independent watchmakers. No other sources for the parts. Also, it is a very complicated movement as I explained before. 99.9% of all Americans who call themselves watchmakers are not qualified to work on this watch.
So, your are stuck with sending the watch to Audemars for service or repairs. And you have to go by Audermars rules whether you like them or not, agree with them or not, if you what your watch to be serviced or repaired. You really don't have any other options. This particular Audemars is not like a car.
Audemars is going to say: The back has been made approximately 20% thinner. It now will not resist dents as it was when new. The case back is now springy and soft. Possibly can not return to same water resistance specifications as new. Plus, it it now not up to Audemars quality standards, because it looks like we got stingy on the the amount of gold we used to make the case. We will not do any work on the watch unless the case back is replaced.
Whether or not these policies are fair, is another discussion. I am just explaining the Swiss point of view, not defending it.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I took it of. Reason: too much about whether I should or not
arnaud
arnaud
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Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
Arnaud, which watch do you mean?
The watch you worked on, or my watch that I posted pictures of?
Two different watches, two different opinions, as explained in my posts.
Red Green
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2011
- Messages
- 391
Amazing,
If I were part of the Audemars Company I would not want watch dealers making decisions or stating opinions about what the company would or would not do. I would not want anyone to think that .1 mm removed from the back would ruin the watch, that means the watch is junk right from the maker. To me this means even if I were a billionaire I would never buy a Audemars watch if they are that delicate they have no place in reality, you would be better off with a Timex. I would be shocked to hear from any Swiss maker would say his watchcase could not stand a loss of .1 mm, if so they should be ashamed to sell this junk. This sounds like dealer nonsense to lower the stated value when buying used watches, if not perhaps staying away from Swiss watches is a good idea and people should be warned about the poor quality of the cases.
Bob
If I were part of the Audemars Company I would not want watch dealers making decisions or stating opinions about what the company would or would not do. I would not want anyone to think that .1 mm removed from the back would ruin the watch, that means the watch is junk right from the maker. To me this means even if I were a billionaire I would never buy a Audemars watch if they are that delicate they have no place in reality, you would be better off with a Timex. I would be shocked to hear from any Swiss maker would say his watchcase could not stand a loss of .1 mm, if so they should be ashamed to sell this junk. This sounds like dealer nonsense to lower the stated value when buying used watches, if not perhaps staying away from Swiss watches is a good idea and people should be warned about the poor quality of the cases.
Bob
Thank you Marcus and Jeron for explaining the Puk 3 .
Apologies to Arnaud for speaking before I had my facts straight regarding the Puk3 and the 18kt thing.
That being said, there is much going on in the Luxury Swiss watch industry that goes on in no other.
I have been a Certified Watch Maker for 40 years, what knowledge I take for granted, I forget others
do not know.
Kevin is taking the time and effort to explain much better than I, portions of what I was trying to impart. In short the luxury watch market, like it or not, is controlled by the factories that produce them.
For engravers endeavoring to enter that market, the potential pit falls and liabilities need to be understood and addressed.
j.c.
I stand corrected.
Apologies to Arnaud for speaking before I had my facts straight regarding the Puk3 and the 18kt thing.
That being said, there is much going on in the Luxury Swiss watch industry that goes on in no other.
I have been a Certified Watch Maker for 40 years, what knowledge I take for granted, I forget others
do not know.
Kevin is taking the time and effort to explain much better than I, portions of what I was trying to impart. In short the luxury watch market, like it or not, is controlled by the factories that produce them.
For engravers endeavoring to enter that market, the potential pit falls and liabilities need to be understood and addressed.
j.c.
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