my second bracelet design

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud.

I'm not really sure that comparing the two is doing you any good and probably adds to the confusion more than anything else. There is quite a big difference between the two when you examine them closely.

Work has to progress from one scroll, then add another, then another...............till over a period of time you know how they all work together. This takes a lot of drawing and trial and error.

It is your design that counts ......concentrate on that.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Well, now having them both next to each other, I notice my biggest scrolls have less turns and they are bigger.
And Sam's bigger scrolls don't grow from scrolls so far away as I did. And by doing this like I did, I have to jump over a lot of other scrolls, Sam didn't.
And I think the problem areas Andrew is pointing on, are caused by this big overlapping scrolls. Sam's smaller ones show more of the flow, and sure in his there is more logical flow, but like I have draw some leaves that covers the origin of a scroll, I suppose that does not help to see the flow.

Perhaps this is a bridge to far for me, as Andrew says, 30 years. But I'm not giving it up right now. The formula will be : creating order in the chaos.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Yes Andrew, I understand that comparing them is not the way a design will come out.
I can make a design, starting with one scroll like you say and so on. And then I would not take more risks I can handle, as I do not have the experience to do so.
And I know it is said more than once, don't look to much at the Masters work, we all have our levels.
But there is also another one that says something about copying the Masters.

I suppose all of us have compared our work with the ones of others, just to learn something new. And in a way Sam's design does not look that complicated, but I can't find out by looking at the stars. Sure that is something different than comparing two different backbones.
It is just that Sam"s design inspired me, especialy his small tiny leaves, one against the other that I try to catch.

So I'm not done with it yet, just writing down some thinking to find out.

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

I don't think it's a bridge to far for you and I also think that you are more than capable of accomplishing this type of work. It's just that you need to take a step back and logically work your way through it.

You have to have something to inspire you and get the juices flowing enough to want to make your work progress. We all need that.

My best advise to you with this is to pick up a pencil and paper and start doodling with the scrolls and draw thumbnail sketches. Draw, rub out, modify and gradually knock some shape into it. Just get ideas to paper and make constant alterations till you have something solid to work with...........this make take a couple of drafts........or a hundred.

Then, when you have something that starts to work ........start refining and adjusting till it works.

I'll say it again. This is where the computer is letting you down. When you are concentrating on the technical aspect of clicking with a mouse you are also disconnecting from the intuitive side of your thinking. You are losing something in the process and I honestly think it's more of a hindrance to you than a help. You are dumbing down to the computer.

Try drawing with a pencil and paper............and save the computer stuff for the very last step.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Andrew, I not forgot about the pencil, and already started before you said it again, :big grin:
But sure it is not that amazing I can read your mind on that.
Pencil and backbones for now.

arnaud

 

[John B.]

As far as my comment about the two smaller scrolls right end please see below.
In the backbone drawing the flow line shows them coming off the larger, previous scroll backbone.
The way the leaves were added and drawn on this larger scroll it cuts off the connection and just leaves them looking like they are stuck on to the larger scroll to fill a vacant space.
If one of the leaves was modified the feeder stem for both of the end scrolls could just appear to come out from under it and join the backbone of the larger scroll.
This would help in the visual continuity and understanding the connection and flow IMO.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

John, thank you for taking the time.
Yes, and sure you know that better, but adding leaves when scrolls are overlapping in a way they hide the connection to see where they grow from, can ruin the flow I think.
Especially on this design where I have different scrolls "in dept" (relief)
I will need some time to have the backbone right for now, took Andrews advice to use a pencil to work on the backbone till its right.

arnaud

 

[Ron Smith]

Hi Arnaud,

there are two things I see that might make you understand what Andrew is seeing, and what I see also.

!. Using Sam's example to show differences you might not have noticed, He has two major scroll sizes in his design, and there is a repetition of the way each spiral is constructed and the direction it takes in the design. Each larger spiral has a similar secondary smaller spiral, all going the same direction, never breaking the direction and movement of the design except for the obvious, intended focal point, the round space at one end. Each secondary spiral is over lapping in a repetative manner creating continuity.

2. The overall direction of the design is never violated, but rather it all moves toward the circle focal point and he has drawn attention to that spot for a reason. Intended focal points are alright. Accidental ones are not. If this focal point had not ben there, I would imagine he would have started in the center and worked out to both ends, and/or also would have started at one end and worked toward the other, never changing the direction of movement.

As much as Andrew said that Sam's design should not be important, it is your inspiration, and therefore when you know the differences, you can know how to make corrections. It is obvious you are not copying, but trying to understand what you are seeing.

Your design is a little random where Sam's follows principals which I have tried to point out. These things will make the difference I think, in you knowing what to do.

3. Vast differences in spiral size tends to clutter the design rather than blend it, unless they are scattered evenly over the whole design and not random.

Hope this helps you to understand what you are seeing in Sam's work.

Learning how to study and understand what you see is almost an art in itself.

Good luck! I know it will be fabulous when you get it worked out.

Oh, another thing. Having scrolls originate from non viable locations creates confusion and it would be hard to remedy that with shading, as it will actually enhance and accentuate those problems sometimes. If you know shadng well, you can sometimes cover mistakes, but I don't think this is one of them.

Ron S

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Ron for your input. Sure I will find a way to catch a design that comes closer to Sam's without copying of course.
It is a great study for me trying something different with design.
I understand Sam was already more experienced than I when he did this one.
But nothing wrong to take a higher challenge if one want to improve his skills.

Only for the moment I have no time, so I have to let it rest for some time as now I'm working on a dog head in gold, size of a 2 euro (26mm) front view of a West Highland White. And I want to finish it a s a Whaaaaauuuw!
This is for a customer, so it has priority. :big grin:

arnaud

 

[myrh502]

Just to critique...overall it's a nice design...but it's not balanced...your left have bigger scrolls than the right...your right are more busy and so visually they look smaller...i hope this helps

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I made some new backbone designs for this one.
here is the best one that has potential.

critiques are welcome as always.

arnaud

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

As I have been watching this, it's fun to see the different ideas, and it's quite interesting.
If you are careful about which scroll is where, foreground to background, I think all of your designs could be cut well and look really good.
Good work.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Barry, I will work this one to ad leaves by showing the origin of the stem. This was something that didn't work so well on my previous design.
I understand hiding the the backbone by putting it to the background can mùake it look like chaos instead of nice flow.

arnaud

 

[ddushane]

Looking forward to seeing this one cut Arnaud!

Dwayne

 

[John B.]

Arnaud.

This new backbone drawing is basically two equal halves reversed and repeated from each end.
You might try flipping one end top to bottom. I think it would be more interesting.
Leave the middle three scrolls out until you have the ends redrawn and then add them to fit. Worth a try I think.
Best.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Dwayne, sure I will cut another bracelet, just don't know yet how it will look like. :big grin:

John, thank you for taking the time.
I gave it a try like you suggested, I also made some other small corrections before flipping and filling in the center part.
Perhaps I have to add another scroll on both ends at the start of the stem, I could fill it with leaves, but I'm not sure it would be in balance with the other leaves.

To me this version doesn't look bad neither.

arnaud

 

[John B.]

That looks more interesting to me, Arnaud.
I think it would show a much stronger backbone flow if you change where I have drawn in the green lines on the enlarged detail.
The way you have it drawn will be very confusing to figure out the point of flow to the #3 large scroll when you add the leaves and tendrils.
And the two small scrolls match nothing else in the design IMO.
These area can be matched to other like size areas with just the addition of an outside or overlapping leaf or tendril.
That's just my thought, others may see it differently.

Best.

 

[spank7357]

Arnaud, Thanks for "running the gauntlet"! It takes guts to stick your neck out on a public forum which holds such high standards world-wide. What starts and ends with your scroll designs becomes our on-line learning clinic. Thanks to you for your quest for the best as we can all learn with you. Keep it up! Best regards, Spank

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

John, tanks again for taking the time on this one.
To resume what I recently learned from this designs is that it is most important that the connections of the different scrolls have to bee seen. So when making a design with some overlapping scrolls, it is important when adding leaves that the "growing from the stem" is seen.
So I think I understand what you mean about the two green scrolls coming from the red starting scroll. I already made the other changes you pointed on, but do you mean I have to redraw both green scrolls in a way they don't overlap?

As that would not be that easy to do if at the same time I have to touch the borders. And if I have to redraw these two, overlapping isn't a good idea?

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Spank, I'm glad you like my contribution about making designs. I don't have any problems showing my mistakes to the world. As I think one can learn a lot from mistakes. And for me it is one of the best ways to learn new thinks I like to learn.

arnaud