my second bracelet design

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Well you might think: "oh not again" I would understand that. :big grin:

I have learned that removing background is the most boring part of relief engraving and also the most time consuming.
After seeing Sam's very nice design and Marcus advise to use more than just one starting scroll point, I thought I tried something different.
Almost only leaves and scrolls without to much background. In my opinion it will look like more work done but probably it will not.
So I'm still working on the leaves, but wanted to show the backbone already. It looks more like a "can of worms" using Ron Smith's words.
While working on the leaves I have to be careful for what will be on top and what will be in the background to make a good balanced design.

If one sees any major mistake in the backbone design, please tell me.
There are two start growing points, I could change it into tree, and perhaps I have to add some more scrolls. The left and right side are my favorites, and I know especially the center will be seen most, I have to think about the center, perhaps changing a few things, but I could perhaps also make it more interesting when adding the leaves and the shading.

arnaud

 

[Willem Parel]

If one sees any major mistake in the backbone design, please tell me.

arnaud

Arnaud, who am I to tell you how to design, but I try to cooperate and to learn from it.
It looks to me that the backbone has stopped just in the third large scroll at the left side,
And from the opposite way it get stocked also in that scroll (just halfway) to my humble opinion.

 

[Kevin P.]

Arnaud, I have to say the design doesn't make sense to me. Not that that makes a difference.
But to process the design in order to try to make sense of it, I took your design and copied it to put on my light table in order to trace what I see as common elements. I want to discover where those 'two start growing points' are.

I'm looking for some balance in the design. To me that's necessary, but perhaps not to everyone.
In any case it will be interesting to 'deconstruct' just for the learning experience. I'm going to try some layering to see where that takes me.
Kevin P.

 

[Bunic]

Arnaud,

I can't wait to see how you 'leaf' this one - looks very complex.

Here's a little visual of where your focal points may be. Kinda opposites on the ends - the right is full to the corners, whereas the left is very open.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Good luck with that Arnaud, i think you may need to simplify it abit otherwise a headache is due :big grin:

I love seeing how these designs develop, great learning tools.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I have been busy for some ours with this, as I already said, I want to remove have less background to remove.
It was Sam's design I liked that much, so this is my try to design something similar for a bracelet.
I'm aware that the shading will need much attention to prevent "focus points"
I show you the design a bit bigger, as then one does perhaps not need his eyeglasses.
And I use 3 starting points.


What do you think? :big grin:

the Backbone, I had to adjust some a bit.

the Design

 

[Kevin P.]

Arnaud to me this design has more coherence.
I like the look of it.
Kevin P.

 

[MICHAEL]

Arnaud, I'm only replying because we both may learn something, or I may be completely wrong. In which case, I apologize in advance, and only I will have learned something. It was pointed out to me at the engrave-in today that it creates alot of problems when you incorporate c-scroll with oval scrolls. Your design looks pretty cool but there's something I just can't put my finger on, other than combining two different styles of scrolls. Just a two cent thought. I'll leave this to people more qualified to help you. Good luck and absolutely loved your last bracelet.

 

[Kevin P.]

Arnaud to me this design has more coherence.
I like the look of it.
Kevin P.

On furthering consideration I see things that I would change; but I don't know that this is a critique or criticism. I guess it's only a personal thing.
It will take some like Andrew to offer something helpful. My take is intuitive only, not constructive. I wish I could be helpful; but I enjoy seeing your approach and your progress.
Kevin P.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Arnaud

That's a lot of foliage you have in there............Are you sure Tarzan isn't hidden in there somewhere

Again, this is only my personal opinion and others will see things differently...................there are some things I like about it and some I don't. I can see what you are trying to achieve but there are a few areas that don't make a lot of sense.

Some of the design is fighting itself and the leaves are working against each other. Other parts are hidden and blocking the flow of the design.

Your scroll heads are also hooked. If you look at Sam's engraving that you took the inspiration from.............you'll notice that his scroll spine is a lot thinner than yours. This allows for one more turn (or half turn) of the scroll head. As your design is at the moment they look a bit like worms (not that there's anything wrong with worms of course as every garden needs them)

I hate to say it again................but I still think the computer is working against you and you are relying on it too much for a few things. Your drawings are looking more like computer generated clip art than hands on intuitive designs..........but I suspect that we will disagree about that one for a long time yet

Tonight I'll try and draw the areas that you may want to look at as it's far easier than trying to explain.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Ok , there's a break in the traffic so here goes.

I've basically drawn red lines in all the problem areas that I can see. How to fix them???.............I'm not so sure you can because some of them are main elements that probably means a complete redraw.

When you think of these things...........think of a river flowing or a tree growing. Everything has a certain direction and everything flows/grows in that direction.

Yes, you can have back currents and eddies and back growing branches that enhance the overall look and texture and ad to the complexity. Even wild looking English gardens have a certain rhythm to them where everything grows in harmony..........it's the same with scroll work, you can have back growing scrolls but they must be balanced with the rest of the design......not just banged in to fill a space.

At the moment you have an overgrown garden that is being stifled and everything is fighting one another. You need to dig out the weeds and dead bits and let the garden breath

I know that all sounds kind of "arty farty" but you have so much happening there that I can't think of another way to put it.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Andrew, thank you for taking the time to point this out.
I have to think again on this design, indeed there is some chaos. It is not a matter of fixing it as you said.
I will have to study Sam's design again and and start to redraw it.
On this I already learned a lot and perhaps because it is different from my other designs, that I will need to study this again.
I think you explained the problem areas well enough so I have understood, we'll see.

to be continued, arnaud

 

[Bunic]

Arnaud,
Beautiful design (again!) I can't wait to see the fine'. Tnx!

Andrew,
Great explanation of proper flow. Image is saved and being studied!! Tnx!


All-
What is the best use of computers in developing/enhancing hand-drawn scrolls or other artwork? Seeing it as another tool in the toolbox means it can/should be utilized for mastery of producing the end product. How? When? When not?

(If this should be another thread, let me know...)

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Mike

A couple of years ago Marty Rabeno gave an excellent seminar on computer graphics (Photoshop) manipulations with scene work. The DVD available from FEGA.

Likewise Phil Coggan gave an excellent tutorial here on the forums on how to use Photoshop for scene work.

I gave a seminar a few years ago demonstrating the uses of CorelDraw. Also available as a FEGA DVD. I use it to take pencil drawing scrolls from paper to transfer only.

But.......................

Personally I'm not that convinced that it's of much use for scroll/leaf design as it relates to engraving. I think that pencil and paper are far more intuitive for initial design work and you get a better result. The computers adds a barrier or blockage somewhere in the process and takes away the human element that is essential. I personally find that computer generated scrolls have a certain sterility about them.

It's the old story.......to each his own and there is no right or wrong of it. Just whatever works for you. These are my own thoughts and I don't expect others to agree

Cheers
Andrew

 

[BrianPowley]

Well.........it certainly is busy!
Andrew is right----Just a bit overgrown---I'll add "a little cramped" in there. But it isn't a bad design.
This particular pattern seems to want to explode because it is just stuffed and contained by the border.
(In a real life potted plant, this would be called "root-bound")
You might try to let the scroll work flow over and past the borders in places---just a little bit.
That might help making the scrolls "rounder" by giving you a little more room to draw them properly.
The other tidbits Andrew has mentioned will also help this design to "bear fruit"-pun intended.

 

[John B.]

Arnaud and Andrew both,

Where does the small end scroll on the lower right corner originate?
To me, it rotates the wrong way and also just bumps out without any flow line.
I didn't see it corrected in Andrews redraw, maybe he is being kind.
OR it must be my blind spot. What am I not seeing about this, please?
With a second look, I don't see any point of origin and flow for either terminal scrolls on the right end.
They look like fill in afterthoughts to me, sorry.
Best,

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

John, you are very kind pointing on more problems.
The origin of the lower right scroll comes from the similar in size from above.
Here is the original backbone again, perhaps it makes things more clear, as that sure does not mean it still has no problems.
But perhaps, if I may say so, only showing the backbone makes my thoughts more clear.
When drawing the leaves I sure had to respect the backbone, problem is when choosing witch scroll is on in front and witch is in the back, that can spoil the flow.
The problem areas Andrew pointed on, sure I agree, and probably he did not focus on all of them to be kind.
I learned that even if the backbone scrolls are in balance, the design still might not work. I thought I could solve that with the shading, as in Sam's example he also used some parts of scrolls that are more dark and so in the background. That way I thought one can accentuate the flow.

And sure I have no problem to start all over again, as this is learning for me, and indeed it is a quite complicated can of worms.
But may I think also you ever did try designs like this to find out what works and what don't?
Of course I agree less chaos is more pleasing to the eyes, just trying to find out the "confines" (if that is the right English word for it)

After studying Sam's design, I will show what I did with it.
If I may ask a difficult question that perhaps is not the place to ask: is there something really bad with Sam's design, I suppose not at it looks good to me, the only thing about it is that I had to draw the backbone to see the flow. So if this kind of design is not the best idea, although I like it, perhaps I need to step back.

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

If I may ask a difficult question that perhaps is not the place to ask: is there something really bad with Sam's design

No, there is nothing wrong with Sam's design.

The difference between what you are trying to achieve with this design and Sam's.......is 30 something years of experience

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Here is my first backbone design and the one I traced from Sam.
I'm not showing this to be right, sure not. Only to show that some elements that seems not to work also appear in Sam's backbone. In fact to me he even used more scrolls than I.
So sure Sam made better use of his backbone than I did with mine. Or my backbone is so wrong I can't make a proper design out of it.
One thing that is clear to me is that Sam's bigger scrolls have more turns.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Yes Andrew, no doubt about Sam's design, that is the reason I try to catch it because I like it that much. But in a way the design is totally different of what I have seen of his work.
So I just asked. As one thing I learned is never be sure until you found out.

arnaud