Question: Master?
- Thread starter golden forge
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kguns
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The title Master is subjective at best in the US in regards to any profession.
In 40 years I’ve been fortunate to know many American and European MASTER Engravers.
If the Title is important to you then FEGA is our best source to achieve a Master status in America.
The requirements are reasonable and the Judging is honest.
So if you make it congratulations, if you don’t work harder and try again
I think the designation of Master is way to qualify an artist’s ability to produce a standard of quality that the public can comprehend.
The only thing lacking is a law regulating the designation, I for one would not support that course of action, business is regulated enough as it is without putting a legal burden on the designation of ability.
Caveat emptor, the consumer needs to bear some responcibilty
I have not been a FEGA member since the 80’s for no particular reason positive or negative, the reality is that FEGA has done a good job setting a reasonable standard for the American market.
In 40 years I’ve been fortunate to know many American and European MASTER Engravers.
If the Title is important to you then FEGA is our best source to achieve a Master status in America.
The requirements are reasonable and the Judging is honest.
So if you make it congratulations, if you don’t work harder and try again
I think the designation of Master is way to qualify an artist’s ability to produce a standard of quality that the public can comprehend.
The only thing lacking is a law regulating the designation, I for one would not support that course of action, business is regulated enough as it is without putting a legal burden on the designation of ability.
Caveat emptor, the consumer needs to bear some responcibilty
I have not been a FEGA member since the 80’s for no particular reason positive or negative, the reality is that FEGA has done a good job setting a reasonable standard for the American market.
Roger B
Elite Cafe Member
That's OK Bob.
Most of the posts in the tread are based on personal experiences in particular countries around the world. Even kguns comment that "The title Master is subjective at best in the US in regards to any profession." expresses his opinion about what happens in the US. The title of the thread is "Master?" Arnauds contribution dealt with his experience in Belgium and that to gain the recognition of Master there are conditions that must be met by the ruling authorities who grant that title, this broke away from the entire page of posts dealing with latin translations which had nothing to do with the qualifications of being a Master.
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
Master of whatever is something that you earn over a long period of time. You never call yourself a "master" unless you want abit of self importance.
It may be in one area of a subject or cover all areas...
If you want to be master of stone setting, goldsmithing or engraving or anything else you need to know everything inside out & backwards.
You need to be able to answer any related question, produce the result, know all potential problems & ways around them. Most importantly if you believe something can't be done properly or is problematic don't do it & give good reason.
Best be humble & let others judge.
I'll give an example..I turned away many jobs that went to other setters, all ended in a fail & were scrapped. That was hard for me to do but I knew better & saved my face.
It may be in one area of a subject or cover all areas...
If you want to be master of stone setting, goldsmithing or engraving or anything else you need to know everything inside out & backwards.
You need to be able to answer any related question, produce the result, know all potential problems & ways around them. Most importantly if you believe something can't be done properly or is problematic don't do it & give good reason.
Best be humble & let others judge.
I'll give an example..I turned away many jobs that went to other setters, all ended in a fail & were scrapped. That was hard for me to do but I knew better & saved my face.
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K Frei
Elite Cafe Member
Personally I think I think one of the ways to define master, is, they have earned the respect of their peers. Here on the forum there are those who's opinions many of us give more weight to. Why? Because of the work they can accomplish, yes, but also because of the respect they have within the community, and the respect with which they treat those of us who are just learning...
Southern Custom
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Somewhere along in my career, I started to be called a Master Jeweler when being introduced to someone by the elder jewelers in my community. At first it bugged me a bit. I have seen many cases of self proclaimed masters in many trades. I did serve very long apprenticeships under two different jewelers. At this point, I do know my trade inside and out. I can fix not only my mistakes but the mistakes of others. I do teach apprentices. I don't think this necessarily qualifies me as a master.
At some point as jewelers or engravers, we know enough about what we do to recognize in certain artists a mastery of the skill. As a young 17 year old jewelers apprentice, all the guys around me were masters. As I progressed, I realized only a few jewelers in my town were really masters of the craft. Everyone around me recognized them as such. After many, many years, Those same men I respected started introducing me as a "Master Jeweler". I learned to accept it and at some point I understood why. I realized I had earned the respect of those men when they started asking me for advice when presented with a problem.
I think more important than asking what makes one a master is to possess ability and humility to know when you are not. I'm coming into my own as an engraver. But a "Master" I am not.
At some point as jewelers or engravers, we know enough about what we do to recognize in certain artists a mastery of the skill. As a young 17 year old jewelers apprentice, all the guys around me were masters. As I progressed, I realized only a few jewelers in my town were really masters of the craft. Everyone around me recognized them as such. After many, many years, Those same men I respected started introducing me as a "Master Jeweler". I learned to accept it and at some point I understood why. I realized I had earned the respect of those men when they started asking me for advice when presented with a problem.
I think more important than asking what makes one a master is to possess ability and humility to know when you are not. I'm coming into my own as an engraver. But a "Master" I am not.
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I think to much is made of the term's significance.
It merely indicates competency.
A master engraver is like a master plumber, competent.
It merely indicates competency.
A master engraver is like a master plumber, competent.
Brian Marshall
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Not really...
The plumber usually has better hours, less investment in tools, and charges a LOT more per job or per hour!
(based on recent first hand check writing experience - I am finally too decrepit to do it myself anymore)
Brian
And you are not likely to find a plumber working through Christmas Eve and into the early morning hours of Christmas Day...
The plumber usually has better hours, less investment in tools, and charges a LOT more per job or per hour!
(based on recent first hand check writing experience - I am finally too decrepit to do it myself anymore)
Brian
And you are not likely to find a plumber working through Christmas Eve and into the early morning hours of Christmas Day...
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Red Green
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I'm sorry again Roger I had no idea this thread was so important to you or I would have conducted myself with greater sobriety. It's true Latin has no place in serious conversation it is a language for fools and children, in my defense I do qualify. I must admit I have no way to change anything about who calls themselves a Master and to be honest it would make absolutely no difference in my life no matter how this thread turns out.
Barry are you saying that to be a Master Engraver you need only be competent? This cannot be true, so many here say most will not make a decent living from engraving, that implies the work is art. Can artwork be competent, do skills outweigh art for a Master Engraver, can one be a skillful but artless Master Engraver?
Bob
Barry are you saying that to be a Master Engraver you need only be competent? This cannot be true, so many here say most will not make a decent living from engraving, that implies the work is art. Can artwork be competent, do skills outweigh art for a Master Engraver, can one be a skillful but artless Master Engraver?
Bob
Gemsetterchris
Elite Cafe Member
Take a master bricklayer or electricion, they know their stuff do the job & move on...way too much finicky worries in these "arts" that are basically just an embellishment of stuff..hardly important to most everyday folks.
As much as I love these jewellery/engraving trades they really are insignificant to the majority.
That's when you take a day off & get back in the real world
As much as I love these jewellery/engraving trades they really are insignificant to the majority.
That's when you take a day off & get back in the real world
Barry Lee Hands
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Bob, in my experience, whether work is art or not, has nothing to do with profit, or labor involved.
Work by its nature, has value when the productivity of a worker is converted into capital through price discovery in the marketplace.
Whereas Art, by comparison, elicits or conveys emotional response, and really has no direct connection to labor, although often art has a percieved value, comparable to the strength of the emotional response conveyed.
That is one possible reason why a great artist can command a great price, because the emotional response becomes a multiplier of value inherent in work.
Red Green
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I must admit my sense of humor is a bit opaque at times, but it pales to the FEGA's websites information about what makes an engraver a FEGA Master. It's just my opinion but I think art value is based on what a gallery has decided. If emotional response determines value explain Andy Worhol. Most people don't even know what art is and they value it by what they are told.
Bob
Bob
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Because this is an international forum the word "Master" will have many different interpretations and definitions depending on the country you live in. You also have the main meaning and subtle nuances of the definition.
You also have to take into account that languages change/evolve and so does the definition of words. So what a definition of a word was 100 years ago can often be different today. I think it's fair to say that in most countries the word Master implies a high level of workmanship.
In New Zealand, you are apprenticed under a Master who has passed their own apprenticeship and gained all necessary qualifications to pass on their skills. This applies across the board of all trades. However that is changing over time. When I did my signwriting apprenticeship I was one of the few that went on to gain the qualification of A Grade which now no longer exists in the industry.
Many have mentioned the FEGA Master Engraver program which is an excellent system of recognition within a Guild. As far as I'm aware it is the only engraving specific Master program in the USA. Is it perfect? No it isn't, but then again nothing ever is. What it tells people is that the engravers that obtain the title FEGA Master Engraver have achieved a high level of skill that is recognised by their peers within the Guild. Now that is something to be proud of like any worthwhile achievement.
Cheers
Andrew
You also have to take into account that languages change/evolve and so does the definition of words. So what a definition of a word was 100 years ago can often be different today. I think it's fair to say that in most countries the word Master implies a high level of workmanship.
In New Zealand, you are apprenticed under a Master who has passed their own apprenticeship and gained all necessary qualifications to pass on their skills. This applies across the board of all trades. However that is changing over time. When I did my signwriting apprenticeship I was one of the few that went on to gain the qualification of A Grade which now no longer exists in the industry.
Many have mentioned the FEGA Master Engraver program which is an excellent system of recognition within a Guild. As far as I'm aware it is the only engraving specific Master program in the USA. Is it perfect? No it isn't, but then again nothing ever is. What it tells people is that the engravers that obtain the title FEGA Master Engraver have achieved a high level of skill that is recognised by their peers within the Guild. Now that is something to be proud of like any worthwhile achievement.
Cheers
Andrew
Red Green
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If anyone has any question about the quality or the art of an FEGA Master all they need do is look at the Masters list and the work under those names. I was not asking if they were truly Masters but what determined their placement. Misuse of words do not change their meaning, acceptance of misuse only contaminates the language, look what has happened to English. Use of popular slang is the cats pajamas, but they fade with time, misuse leaves a scar.
Bob
Bob
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Red Green
I thought that was covered on the FEGA web site and covered by Roger's post.
Basically the applicant has to be a FEGA member and bring their work to the annual convention. There is certain criteria that they have to conform to such as gold inlay work, scene/animal work, lettering etc etc which is all covered on the application. If you are a FEGA member you can download the application and read it at length.
Their work is then judged and scored by all the other FEGA Master engravers present at the convention/show. Generally most of the FEGA Master Engravers are present at the show every year and they take the judging very seriously.
Cheers
Andrew
I thought that was covered on the FEGA web site and covered by Roger's post.
Basically the applicant has to be a FEGA member and bring their work to the annual convention. There is certain criteria that they have to conform to such as gold inlay work, scene/animal work, lettering etc etc which is all covered on the application. If you are a FEGA member you can download the application and read it at length.
Their work is then judged and scored by all the other FEGA Master engravers present at the convention/show. Generally most of the FEGA Master Engravers are present at the show every year and they take the judging very seriously.
Cheers
Andrew
Ed Westerly
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
This horse appears to have been beaten dead.
silverchip
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Maybe Bob, you should come up with your own definition of "Master Engraver" and please share it with us. I believe the term is meant to be a guide for the public. To show the world who is considered tops at their art so that if a person was looking to have something done,they might start with that list and "decide for themselves".
Red Green
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I did, it is the Latin nonsense posted earlier in the thread. The qualifier is truly a definition or explanation of the title. It says other engravers have proclaimed a Master by their authority as they have proof the Master is to be honored and respected. Saying an Master Engraver is a skilled worker doesn't seem all that honorable, the old meaning of the artist with controlling force does not apply anymore. I'm not a Master and do not expect to be one so if the present Masters are happy with things as they are, what the heck? You can see the mastery of work even if you don't like the artwork so you can "decide for themselves" and I think most people do. I'm not trying to change anything, I'm just giving my unqualified opinion that is worth a little less than it cost, as I have an overabundance.
Bob
Bob
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