Coin Carving Software

[chris]

hi
the computer defanatly has no heart or sole but the man behind it certanly has and is defenatly skilled in his FIELD as you all are in yours as stated its not the tools its the way its used i think marcus has said that quit a bit i think you did im sure i will hear if im wrong most on here are using power assisted tiny jack hammers not really traditional but the sure cut some[ sweet music ] parts of your jackhammers probably made by cnc
and so i think the cnc has helped engraveing come forward instead of dieing
so it is in a bit of every thing you cut unless you push may be the blank steels are done by cnc the hardenig to sereously i think character is what everyone leave in there work no matter how it was done
chris

 

[thekoabenchgoldsmith]

The effect of computers in all manner printing/engraving/carving is pervasive.

While I was living in Honolulu a highrise was built shortly after a well known metal fabricator installed a computer controlled water jet metal cutting machine. The building architect had that shop cut the name of the building from 1/2" thick steel plate in letters that were about 12" tall. I had been using my Mac computer with Adobe Illustrator for a couple years at that time, so i was rather familiar with the font Zapf Chancery. I recognized the font style used for the building name immediately. There was something that bothered me about the cutting that I did not recognize for sometime however. Yes, the letters were all absolutely perfect, and that made the signage uninteresting to my eye and lessened the overall visual appeal of the building, which at that time was quite stunning and forward thinking for Honolulu. But, what really made the letters look second-rate was that the serif ended in a large flat, rather than thinning to a point. It took me a while to realize that was the effect of taking a letter that looked great at say 12-18 pt size (1/6 - 1/4 inch tall) with only a couple pixel widths for the point of the serif, and enlarging the letter 50-70 times. What would have been a lovely shaped point had a human touch been applied became a run-of-the machine process. And if we look around now at all the vinyl signage on stores and shops we can see the same "dumbing down" of lettering. It looks good at a first, and casual, glance. But compare it to a hand cut letter, or a hand painted sign and the difference is so apparent. In 20 years it won't matter. No one will remember what real serifs on letters looked like. And at the rate that my visual acuity is abandoning me by that time the fat ugly serifs will likely appear thin and graceful.

Another tell tale of machine cutting is that inside corners are never pointed but always have a small radius. I think that is what Steve was referring to when he said that even machine cut dies look better when retouched by a hand cutter.

Aloha all,
reb

 

[thekoabenchgoldsmith]

Aloha Mr. Carr,
I think your software is simply cool. I don't think I will be using it to run any cnc equipment but the images it produces are very stunning. Just wish it were available for a Mac. I have Boot Camp on my MacBook Pro so i could run your software, but I find it too time consuming to shutdown and restart my computer to get to the Windows side.

Welcome to the cafe, by the way.

Aloha,
Robert Booth
The Koa Bench Goldsmith

 

[dcarr]

Greetings everyone,

I haven't visited here in quite a while but just dropped in by accident. Interesting posts.

I would like to reiterate that the "soft" look of my Washington coin was intentional. I travel in the same circles as many coin collectors. Many of them lament the cartoonish over-exaggerated (but low-relief) imagery on US coins. Most of them, for example, when comparing the current portrait of Washington on a state quarter to the original issue of 1932, say that the "spaghetti hair" on the modern version is distracting and amateurish. I agree. So I didn't want to have that same sort of look.

By the way, the US Mint Washington dollar that I compared mine to is NOT a "Hand" engraving !
It is a hand-made sculpture. But the dies are created using a reduction lathe. Here is a picture of my Washington dollar with a proof finish:

PS: Here is a new example of a 38mm piece I did. It was sculpted by my hand (using a mouse). I engraved the dies via CNC and did not have to touch up a single thing on them:

 

[dcarr]

Some new pieces from the last couple years

16.5mm gold:

39mm silver:

39mm silver:

39mm copper:

22mm nickel:

 

[KCSteve]

You could sell a ton of those last two coins - they'd be very well received collectibles.

 

[Weldon47]

Mr Carr,

I really enjoyed seeing your work and also enjoyed this thread. Very creative work you are sharing....thanks for letting us take a look.
The differences mentioned are simply: differences in the application of the creative mind

WL

 

[gtsport]

Dan! I've been meaning to contact you. I will be inthe springs for the summer seminar later this month. How would I get to your place form there?

Joe Paonessa

 

[dcarr]

You could sell a ton of those last two coins - they'd be very well received collectibles.

Thanks, I have been selling all of those shown. The Jefferson coin was struck over normal US Mint Jefferson Nickels. Due the the extreme forces (tons per square inch) required to obliterate the underlying design when struck, the obverse die cracked on the very first one and then I had to scrap it after about 240 strikes. I did sell all of those 240 already (except for a couple I kept for myself ).

PS:
In 2010 I made a new pair of Jefferson dies, same as 2009 but with a 2010 date and somewhat lower relief. That one lasted 330 strikes.

 

[dcarr]

Dan! I've been meaning to contact you. I will be in the springs for the summer seminar later this month. How would I get to your place from there?

Joe Paonessa

Hi Joe,
Private Message sent.

 

[coincutter]

Your software is very cool. CNC's are very cool.
I would like to see your toys work. We are neighbors. I am in Highlands Ranch.
I'll bring the beer.

I see a lot of similarity in the two processes, some of our coins are drop dead beautiful and some suck.

There are different types of collectors. Some prefer machine work others prefer hand work.

The coin work we do is a continuation of a long standing folk art tradition. The coins are not intended to be perfect down to the nth degree. Nor should they be. At a certain point of refinement they fall into the dumper.

Your machine cannot duplicate the individual cuts and strokes of the artist which impart a particular character to a given coin. While it may be able to produce a slick product it's just not the same. I would imagine you would have a very hard time keeping the opposite side of a nickel intact when smacking it with a coin press. You did consider that part of the process didn't you?

Granted I would love to be able to produce a mirror mint finish flat back ground. But I can't. Nor can I cut pretty letters and numbers. But given all that, who really cares?

I can go buy a print of the Mona Lisa and hang it on my wall but knowing full well it's pretty but that it's a knock off and as such it lacks something. I can dress it up with acrylic and put in the brush strokes but it's still lacking as they are my strokes and not the masters.

If one of my collectors or patrons gives me a concept to work with I take it and run with it. The coin changes until it's done. It may not match the original design. It may have a distortion or two or three. But it's human inspired and human powered art. Chances are it turns out equal or better as the carving is completed.

Cutting coins for collectors can be a royal PITA. They are very demanding in their own right. The know what they as individuals prefer and who cuts in the style that makes them happy.

I can't speak for any of them but I assume that it would be safe to say that they would have little interest in collecting the types of coins we do here produced in this fashion.

I can see the application of your product in the medallion market. Funded by royalty. Carving out 8" plates and reducing them to 2" to be sold in quantity for 50 bucks a pop ( if they sell).

However, they too have a penchant for being able to see the sharp chisel work of the creator. It's just not about automotive precision. it's the difference between your mom's home cooked chicken and Kentucky Fried.

I have turned out some coins with a hammer and chisel just to see if I could do the original hobo method. Tough work. They were road kill. But some collectors loved them. They had my style. My cuts. They couldn't be replicated.

You see there are things your machine can't do that collectors want on their coins. I can undercut, roll up the metal and push it where it's never been before to cast wondrous shadows. I can inlay the pupils of the eyes with a spot of 24k gold to give a glint in the eye of a pirate that catches one's eye in a brief instant of magic and brings a smile to the collectors eye. I can make tools to go where no CNC router has gone before or ever will. (Trekky huh ) and I can adjust the concept midstream and add additional elements on the fly.

The same holds true for other carvers here.

While we may have our differences of opinion on style, tools and techniques, we would never go so far over the line as to challenge one another to a duel of artistic talent. We respect each others work for what it is. Art. A series of pure and undiluted personal expressions of a sequence of thoughts impressed with a few tools upon the face of a stupid nickel. We have fun doing what we do and making a scant profit which affords us the opportunity to buy a few new tools and now and then.

Another thing about machines. They don't come to visit, sit and have a dram of scotch, email, skype or phone or offer advice.

So it's back to the basic question. Paintings or prints.

Oh, one more thought. It's just my opinion...but Steve Adams can design and carve rings around your software and router with his eyes shut.

Something comes to mind about spitting into the wind and Supermans cape and Jedi Masters. But l'll leave it at that.

SLE

 

[dcarr]

Your machine cannot duplicate the individual cuts and strokes of the artist which impart a particular character to a given coin.

Yes it can. But I generally don't use my machine to "duplicate" things. I use it to make my original "cuts and strokes" in the face of a steel die. It doesn't think. It only does exactly what I tell it to do.

While it may be able to produce a slick product it's just not the same.

The same as what ? I'm not interested in making things that are the same as anything else.

I would imagine you would have a very hard time keeping the opposite side of a nickel intact when smacking it with a coin press. You did consider that part of the process didn't you?

I'm not sure what you are alluding to in regards to stamping one side of a coin. If I wanted to carve one side of a coin, by using my software and machine I could cut into it directly to carve it, and not use a stamping die at all. Or, if I did want to stamp it to alter just one side, I'd make a die that was an exact match for the coin's opposite side and stamp the coin between the two dies.

Granted I would love to be able to produce a mirror mint finish flat back ground. But I can't. Nor can I cut pretty letters and numbers. But given all that, who really cares?

Some collectors and many of my customers prefer the polished "proof" finish.
There are collectors that like hand-carved coins. There are also collectors that prefer die-stamped coins. They like the "mint luster" (small radial flow lines) found on die-stamped coins.

I can go buy a print of the Mona Lisa and hang it on my wall but knowing full well it's pretty but that it's a knock off and as such it lacks something. I can dress it up with acrylic and put in the brush strokes but it's still lacking as they are my strokes and not the masters.

Of course, nothing is ever the same as the original. If I make one coin from a die, that coin is the "orginal". If I make many coins from that die, they are ALL originals. If someone took one of those coins and tried to duplicate it, then that duplicate would certainly NOT be one of the originals. Here is what happend when someone tried to duplicate one of my coins. Shown first in each pair of pictures is my 2007 1-Amero coin (I've learned a lot since then and have improved my engraving sharpness in the last three years). Shown after it is a counterfeit product from a Canadian company that hired a hand engraver to duplicate it. Both are 25mm copper pieces.

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My point is, no matter what method is employed to make something, the original(s) can never be duplicated 100% accurately.

If one of my collectors or patrons gives me a concept to work with I take it and run with it. The coin changes until it's done. It may not match the original design. It may have a distortion or two or three. But it's human inspired and human powered art. Chances are it turns out equal or better as the carving is completed.

And what makes you think things are any different with my method ?
They aren't.

Cutting coins for collectors can be a royal PITA. They are very demanding in their own right. They know what they as individuals prefer and who cuts in the style that makes them happy.

I can't speak for any of them but I assume that it would be safe to say that they would have little interest in collecting the types of coins we do here produced in this fashion.

I have sculpted and engraved stamping dies. I have not directly carved any coins that were originally made by somebody else. But I could apply my techniques to carving existing coins if I had the urge to do so (and I might at some point). Would collectors who like carved coins buy them ? If they liked the design and the appearace they would.

I can see the application of your product in the medallion market. Funded by royalty. Carving out 8" plates and reducing them to 2" to be sold in quantity for 50 bucks a pop (if they sell).

I'm not sure what you mean by "funded by royalty". I no longer carve 8-inch "plates". I cut steel dies directly, from digital sculptures using a digital reduction. And just because I use a stamping technique, that doesn't necessarily mean that I produce in mass quantity (although I often do if required). I have, in the past, stamped a lone specimen from a pair of dies. I run my own private minting operation. I have no employees and no boss. I don't have any other job. My wife doesn't work. I support the household via my engraving and minting work.

However, they too have a penchant for being able to see the sharp chisel work of the creator. It's just not about automotive precision. it's the difference between your mom's home cooked chicken and Kentucky Fried.

You assume that my "chisel" marks, as the creator, don't show through to the final product. They do (if I want them to).

I have turned out some coins with a hammer and chisel just to see if I could do the original hobo method. Tough work. They were road kill. But some collectors loved them. They had my style. My cuts. They couldn't be replicated.

That's good. Tough work indeed. But my pieces have my style, my cuts, and can't be replicated either.

You see there are things your machine can't do that collectors want on their coins. I can undercut, roll up the metal and push it where it's never been before to cast wondrous shadows. I can inlay the pupils of the eyes with a spot of 24k gold to give a glint in the eye of a pirate that catches one's eye in a brief instant of magic and brings a smile to the collectors eye. I can make tools to go where no CNC router has gone before or ever will. (Trekky huh ) and I can adjust the concept midstream and add additional elements on the fly.

I don't do undercutting. I don't want to. If I did undercut a die, it would break the first time I stamped with it. But when I'm sculpting, I do push metal all around as if it were clay (digital clay in this case), and I tweak and add things on the fly all the time. I have not done inlay, but I will likely give it a try at some point. It would involve adding different metal to the piece before and/or after stamping it.

While we may have our differences of opinion on style, tools and techniques, we would never go so far over the line as to challenge one another to a duel of artistic talent. We respect each others work for what it is. Art. A series of pure and undiluted personal expressions of a sequence of thoughts impressed with a few tools upon the face of a stupid nickel. We have fun doing what we do and making a scant profit which affords us the opportunity to buy a few new tools and now and then.

My proposed "challenge" (you called it a "duel") was not so much about "artistic talent". It was about results. You can't argue with results. But there would be no winners or losers. Just two different approaches to the same problem, yielding two different end products to compare and contrast.

Another thing about machines. They don't come to visit, sit and have a dram of scotch, email, skype or phone or offer advice.

???
Imagine your scotch-filled friend trying to "help" with your engraving while chatting on their cell phone

So it's back to the basic question. Paintings or prints.

Both are originals. I like the fine engraving found in some printing.

Oh, one more thought. It's just my opinion...but Steve Adams can design and carve rings around your software and router with his eyes shut.

PROVE IT ! Step up to the "challenge" !

You just said that "we respect each others work for what it is". In what way is your "eyes shut" statement "respectful" ?

Something comes to mind about spitting into the wind and Supermans cape and Jedi Masters. But l'll leave it at that.

I never stated or implied that my methods and techniques were superior to hand engraving. They're just different. I've always said that. However, you continue to imply that my methods are inferior. Yet you refuse to prove it. I challenge you (or anyone) to an "engrave-off". Step up to the challenge !

 

[JAT]

WOW, a lot has been said here, enough to make my head spin. I just want to say I am a hand engraver of ten years and I am a certified CNC machinist. I learned engraving the old way by pushing chisels into my hand enough times to learn not to. I learned machining to make thousands of my designs not one of a kinds (just stating MY reasons for learning). I see the need for CNC and embraced it by getting training in mastercam and Esprit software. The one thing I have done the longest in my life is sculpting, over 15 years. A "one of a kind" sculpture in my opinion is worked on directly by the artist, in that he or she touches it with their tools and carves away what isn't part of the design. A computer does the same thing but the intimacy with the medium is lost or not there. I can hear when a CNC machine starts cutting a hard spot or a real soft spot and I can adjust the machine to cut better, but with a CNC machine the art is the programming not the coin or die it cuts. As a hand engraver the art is the finished sculpture, the only proof you ever had that that art exists is the coin. Sculpture is one thing, design is another and both go hand in hand with each other and they both take tremendous talent and skill to make a living with. I give mad props to everyone who has posted here for those reasons. In summation I learned to engrave from a print maker who studied the old ways of doing things and I have learned that where one of a kinds are great it is hard to share that with thousands of people. Sure photographs, but I think we can all agree that photos dont do our work justice. CNC's are now being used to reproduce thousands of sculptures so thousands of people can enjoy a sculpture that they wouldn't be able to afford if it was a one of a kind, but they are reproductions of another piece of art, not one of a kinds. Again I reiterate that the art for a computer can be bought and used over and over just like a hand cut die, but the art is the programming not the coin. But friends there will always be a place for us the hand engravers and there will always be a place for us the CNC machinists. We as artists are responsible for promoting our art and sharing it with the world and as artist we try to find the best way for our skills to do that, whether it be computer or by hand, we must do what satisfies our taste and our wants in our art.

 

[bostosh]

The art is in the system programming and use of it

Great forum here, first post
To revive this thread,
Really good coin die work guys,
I saw original dies at the Nevada Mint museum, a must see once.

Yes, the art is in the programming, Been doin it since '68, it gets easier all the time

Sculpting surfboards, aerospace shapes, to jewelry with CAD CAM, now researching engraving, and doing art stuff from mastercam "art"
Thanks,
BrianO

 

[Dan W]

This is just one more tool for the toolbox, and he who has the most tools wins. Thanks Degs.
Dan