Coin Carving Software

[John B.]

Hi Degs.
Thank you for posting the great link to the CNC software.
Very interesting site for some of us that don't have your computer knowledge.
Look forward to seeing more of your wonderful handcarved coins.
John B.

 

[Steve Adams]

In response to the Cad Cam and medal samples post... Thank you for speaking up, but now I must once more. The two skills are, however, in no way similar in my mind, not because I dislike Cad Cam, but because I have been exposed to both aspects of engraving. Craftsmanship and a computer don't seem to go hand in hand, or perhaps I am old fashioned. No offense intended but a craftsman in our realm is a person skilled in the manual arts, meaning with tools in their hands, in direct contact with the surface to be engraved or sculpted. The learning curve in CNC takes less time than hand engraving, there is a reason for that. I looked at the medal photos you supplied, and from a CNC stanpoint they might be good, but from an experienced die engraver or medallic sculptor standpoint they are lacking in the richness, fullness and the character of a hand-engraved piece. I know this seems harsh, and I apologize for my directness, but the people I do work for expect much more. The truth of the matter is that a high quality medallion still requires a hand die engraver or bas-relief sculptor. Craftsman is a broad term, but most of the craftsmen on this forum are hands-on artisans many of whom must meet the highest standards in order to make their living. When someone shows me a medal produced from a CNC machined die that can equal the quality of a hand cut or reduced from sculpt die I will be the first to admit it. Till then the means of the modern age have a lot of catching up to do. Maybe the solution is for a good hand engraver and a software engineer to share the same brain. A CNC is a wonderful machine, it can make life easier. There are several running 24 hours a day where I used to work. Now if those machines could only bring a 3D die to LIFE like a hand man can. Computer guys like to say they can, but I say "show me". Admittedly I cannot write computer software and a computer can do things I can't , but my brain and hands possess the knowledge to do something computers have not yet equaled. Hope there isn't too much flack over this because I'll unable to respond for a week. Back to PA.

 

[dcarr]

Mr. Adams,

I maintain that "craftmanship" and creativity have nothing to do with what type of tools are used. What really matters is how well the chosen tools are utilized by the human manipulating them.

I propose a challenge. Your approach vs. mine. Let the forum members choose the subject matter for a coinage die. Perhaps something like a portrait of a famous person, to make the challenge a bit more difficult ? Then you or any other person selected by the form can create a die by hand. I will apply my skills and techniques using the tools that I developed. Then we can compare the results here.

 

[Swede]

dcarr, I don't think anyone is disputing that skills are needed to do both, but there is simply a difference between hand work and CNC work. To do a beautiful old English font by hand, or any other text, is a challenge requiring years to master, yet I can order an engraving machine, software, and be cranking out machine-engraved text in 3 days that is visually pleasing. Dies and coinage of course is far more difficult to do using a machine, but it is still different from hand work.

I respect someone who is intimately familiar with a CNC machine - the setup, operation, everything. But I also greatly admire, in a different way, the old tool and die man who has magic in his hands and can do it all without a computer. They're both worthy of respect, but to try and lump both processes under a single label does an injustice.

 

[Steve Adams]

Steve is out of town but the message was relayed to him. He says "I understand and respect your opinion, but it is still comparing apples to oranges. (Swede's response was excellent and absolutely on target.) I don't have time to do a portrait to prove a point, but would be happy to show any of my portraits, as I do them on a nearly weekly basis."

 

[dcarr]

There is nothing wrong with comparing apples and oranges. Sometimes the apple is better. Sometimes the orange is better. I never said one was better than the other. I implied that they were generally equal. I've seen some awful hand engraving and I've seen some awful CNC engraving. I've seen many excellent examples of both types. The only labels that I applied to both processes is that they are both "engraving", and craftmanship can be present or lacking in BOTH types. There is a place (and a market) for both types in this world.

Swede,
Yes, it takes many years to develop certain skills in hand engraving. But it also takes decades of education, experience, and skill to be able to write your own digital sculpting/engraving software from scratch (which is what I did).

I imagine that a discussion similar to this occured when the first reduction lathes were introduced for cutting dies from enlarged bas-relief models. I'm sure the folks who engraved dies directly by hand objected to the new technology and called it "cheating". But there are reasons why reduction lathes eventually replaced hand engraving for 3D dies at most mints.
My software is basically a free-form bas-relief sculpting tool, coupled with a "digital reduction lathe".

Steve,
I guess I don't understand that if you do portrait dies on a weekly basis why you wouldn't be able to do one more.

Is no one here up to the challenge I proposed ???

Imagine if we got Coin World, Numismatic News and/or other publications to run a series of stories following the progress of the participant's in the challenge ! The free publicity for Engraver's Cafe and the participants in the challenge would be, well, very valuable !

 

[Steve Adams]

I think it's best to let the discussion end at this point. We have each invested years/decades in mastering our crafts and they each have their place in the engraving world. We will have to "agree to disagree" on anything further. I don't have the time to pursue a challenge of this nature and do not believe it would prove anything. Nor do I feel the need to prove my abilities in a way other than what I do for a living within the engraving industry. An apology to other Engraver's Cafe members for taking up space that should have been used for its original intention - sharing knowledge and ideas.....Steve

 

[Degs]

I think it's me that should apologize for stirring it up in the first place....... sorry..... I wll sit on my hands if I come across any software in future. I'll stick to Photoshop......... all I need is someone from Adobe to drop in.

Cheers

Degs

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Degs and Steve

I don't think there's any need to apologise for anything. This type of discussion has been around since we came out of the caves and I'm sure it'll be around long after we've gone. Nothing like a healthy debate

It's been an interesting topic with different points of view which gives us all something to think about. Some valid points were made on both sides of the coin (no pun intended) It all goes into the general mix of ideas that we can either accept or reject.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[dcarr]

I think it's best to let the discussion end at this point. We have each invested years/decades in mastering our crafts and they each have their place in the engraving world. We will have to "agree to disagree" on anything further.

Fair enough.

I still think such a challenge or contest would have been fun, and there would have been no losers, only winners in such an endeavor. Regardless, let's continue to do what we do best.

By the way, I now know why we don't see eye-to-eye. You're a Mopar guy (1973 Barracuda - nice) and I'm a Chevy guy (1972 SS-454 El Camino, among others)

I see that you work at Northwest Territorial Mint. Last year I had them strike this 39mm piece from 8.5" diameter black acrylic sculpts that I carved:
Obverse:http://www.designscomputed.com/files/d_mint_obv_coin.jpg
Reverse:http://www.designscomputed.com/files/d_mint_rev_coin.jpg
I didn't know it at the time, but they actually sent the sculpts out to Russ Larson engraving to do the dies. But now I skip the acrylic sculpt and do my own dies directly (I get better results that way).

 

[John B.]

Degs, we will all lose something if you don't post some of your computer research.
You have computer expertese as well as outstanding engraving and sculpting ability.
It was your research that found suppliers in the UK & EU for inexpensive gravers.
Thank you for that and for starting this interesting thread and the discussions that followed it.
Best regards, John B.

 

[Degs]

Thanks for your kind words of support John B. I get more from this forum than I can contribute. Hopefully as my engraving skills and knowledge improves, I can contribute more. I'll just think a little more carefully before posting.............

Cheers

Degs

 

[dcarr]

Thanks for your kind words of support John B. I get more from this forum than I can contribute. Hopefully as my engraving skills and knowledge improves, I can contribute more. I'll just think a little more carefully before posting.............

Cheers

Degs

Degs,
I dont think you did anything the least bit wrong by posting. Sites such as this are supposed to be about sharing knowledge. If a person is not interested, they can simply ignore the thread.

If you are interested, email me and I can supply you with a free 30-day key for VS3D to unlock the file output capabilities.

I'm still interested in a "challange" (hand sculpting/engraving vs. digital sculpting/engraving). Maybe I'll seek out some of the other engraving forums to see if there is any interest.

This will be my last post in this thread, unless someone asks me to post something again.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

It's a shame it's taken me so long to get back into the Cafe coz this is a great posting! (Who said I ever courted controversy?)

Daniel, there is no doubt that you have a great skill in being able to create a program that can create as it does but....I'm sorry I agree wholeheartedly with Steve. There is a huge difference between the way you carve and the way a hand engraver works. Although they may achieve very similar results there is no way on Earth that when the CNC starts cutting that there is any 'soul' whatsoever in the piece. You may perceive that there is, but there isn't. When anything is created via a computer something is lost. It's rather like the computer nerd who creates some music on his PC, yes he's made music but he's NOT a musician. He may be able to place all the notes in a pleasing tempo and rhythym but unless he can actually pick up a guitar and play or bash out a song on a piano something is missing in the equation. Music needs to be organic and not electronic. Why has ther been such an upsurge in the sales of acoustic guitars when we were told in the 70's and 80's that the future of music was electronic?

Once you've created your program and action it you can choose whether to execute it once, a hundred or a thousand times and each piece will look exactly the same as the last. In short, there is no individuality and that is why when someone wants something truly individual they will approach a hand engraver; a pair of hand made, hand engraved guns will be as good a match as the human hand can create. This means even though they're a pair, they will in some small way be different and this is what enlightend individuals are willing to pay for. Ask yourself this, if money was no object would you choose to have an original painting or a print that is also owned by millions of other people?

Please do not misinterpret what I'm saying (someone usually does ) I have great respect for your skill, it's just totally different from what the guys and girls on this forum do. Like Steve says, as different as apples and oranges; both have their place but they are not the same.....you wouldn't make apple pie with oranges would you?

 

[dcarr]

Hello Marcus,

Your belief that anything created via CNC is mass-produced and inferior in quality is not necessarily accurate.

I've engraved several objects via CNC where only one item like it was made, and no more will ever be made. Yes, CNC can be used for mass production, but it isn't always. If an artist sculpts a bas-relief for a medal by hand, that model is typically used to mass-produce die-struck medals. So "hand" work can be used for mass production just like CNC.

In some ways, CNC engraving can be thought of as higher quality than hand engraving due the higher precision of CNC. Take for example the Earth with topographic relief on the medal I posted. That is a more accurate representation of the Earth's actual topography than any human could ever engrave or sculpt by hand.

Putting "soul" in work done via CNC is what I do. That is why I wrote my own software rather than just buying something off the self. I disagree that something is lost. If you "play" the equipment properly, something can be gained. That applies to a simple graver and hammer, as well as a complex digital system.

I realize that I have "stirred the pot" here quite a bit. This is, after all, a "hand" engraving forum. I can see that I'm not particulary welcome here. Everyone here is comfortable, successful, and very skilled in the hand work that they do. And I hope that you contine to be. But the implication that you have a monopoly on craftmanship is what I reject.

In closing, here is a web site that I put together showing a "hand" vs. "digital" sculpting/engraving comparison:

http://www.designscomputed.com/coins/pres_2007.html

This really is my last post here, sorry.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi dcarr

You're right, this is a hand engraving forum.............but I have enjoyed reading your posts.

This whole thread has been kept respectful with a good exchange of ideas and philosophies. People will always have different points of view. It's how they exchange those points that matter.

There is no doubt whatsoever that you are a highly skilled, motivated person that is passionate about what you do. That is certainley common ground that we all share and I take my hat off to you for coming up with a very clever bit of software.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[blrigsby]

I feel the biggest difference is that the hand engraver doesn't have a ctrl-z, or undo button. Both methods require creativity in design, and this part of the process can be very similar, especially when the engraver uses a graphics program.

But this is where the similarity ends. At this point, the cnc machine takes over and anybody could press the buttons. The hand engraver takes a valuable item, be it a custom knife, expensive hand crafted firearm, or delicate timepiece, and starts taking away metal. If the cut isn't like he wanted, he can't back it out to the last saved version and start over. He can't run the program on a test piece and work out the kinks.

Each item is unique. We can't email a file to some guy in China of India to run off 10,000 of the exact same thing.

I am a programmer, and do understand the creativity required to take a concept and control data or machinery. It truly can be an art. And I don't mean that the cnc produced item can't be beautiful. I even had a cnc mill in my basement that I used to make things that I could have by hand, but thought it was really cool to be able to automate.

But in engraving, it just isn't the same thing.

Bryan

 

[monk]

i do laser, pantograph, computer engraving, old hand way, and power assist hand. a few months ago i did 250 cigar boxes and 250 glass plates for joe hardys' birthday bash. this all done overnight as an "emergency" engraving job. the laser performed flawlessly, doing an amazing job, earned me a heap of quick cash ! the only satisfaction there was that i was the only person around who could do this. the laser is fun to use but there's no pride in its use like hand work.

 

[KCSteve]

Wow what a fascinating discussion!

I hope DCarr is still coming around - looks like his software can do some amazing things, and having done embedded systems for a number of years I know the level of skill it represents.

Having come into this at the tail end I think the blrigsby touched on a key point that I don't think anyone really noticed:

The hand engraver takes a valuable item, be it a custom knife, expensive hand crafted firearm, or delicate timepiece, and starts taking away metal.

If I wanted a new medallion made and I wanted significant amounts of lettering on it, right now I'd go with DCarr's system - whether I wanted 1 or 1,000. If I wanted as close as possible to a 'photo' of something on the medallion he'd win as well.

Several folks here could do the lettering and extremely detailed renderings, but I think the system would do it more efficiently.

But if I wanted a new medallion that say, captured my cat HairyCat I'd want a hand engraver. I'd give them a photo (maybe more than one) to work from. In fact, my ever-indulgent wife has a beautiful scrimshaw pendant that an artist name Faustina made for her from a photo of Hairy. I believe that if I very closely compared it to the source photo I'd find 'errors' in the rendering. But that's irrelevant because she didn't capture the photo, she captured the cat.

And if I had wanted this design (regardless of what it is) put onto something existing - say a nice knife, gun, etc. then I think the CNC system starts losing ground quickly. I have no doubt that DCarr could get his system to put a nice, high-precision design onto the cylinder of a revolver, but I expect he'd have to do some 3D scanning and such to let the system figure out the surface it was working on. Someone like Monk (since he just posted) on the other hand would simply do their normal work.

Sticking with the subset of flat round things I wonder how the machine would do resculpting Thomas Jefferson on a nickel into Albert Einstein. Of course, I don't know how you guys do it so maybe it's easier than I think.

Thanks Degs for your initial post - not only did you open a fascinating topic, you provided a link to yet another visualization tool. I figure anything that helps me fix in my mind what I'm trying to do is a good thing.

 

[Michael Orticelli]

I feel bad continuing in the hijacking of this thread into a topic of philosophy, but I am lost on Marcus' idea of someone who makes music not necessarily being a musician simply by using a nontraditional tool, namely a computer. I think at that point you are arguing semantics. Would an artist who makes art with a computer no longer be an artist?

I wholeheartedly agree there is an element of care and humanness in hand made work that will never be replaced by computers, or at least there will always be a group of people who appreciate it above a computer's work for the right reasons. I just don't think I agree with the idea that art necessarily has to follow a certain process in order to be art.