An email I received today

[Red Green]

Truehand, you contradict yourself, first you say the palm push tool is not limiting then you say a Lindsay improved your engraving. Did the Lindsay do the work or did you? A customer is cheated when they do not get their money's worth, are you cheating your customers? You would be cheating both them and yourself not to do the best work you are capable of and you just said you do better work with the Lindsay. Why would anyone want to do less than their best just to use a inferior tool, it's nonsense to me.

Bob

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

How many of you siding with Andrew, can use a push graver?

Or even TRIED to learn it?

You all make it sound so impossible,that naturally people will go buy jigs and power tools.
People think it takes a life time to learn the old ways.
It only takes the desire.

These power tools and jigs are just big business.
Just look at all the advertisements on this page.
All aimed at getting every wannabe to think that by buying this and reading that and taking courses here or there,and getting them
to cut some decent lines the first day,gets them hooked.
Now very time they hit a stumbling block,they look for a way to buy their way around it.
Just look at how much stuff is sold in the classifieds,bay and craigslist.
If your cut out to engrave,then have a SERIOUS go of it with a burin.
You can always buy power tools later,and be ahead of the game in the long run.
But most who are able to engrave with air,cant pick up a burin and continue on.
But ALL who can use a burin ,CAN pick up an air tool and master it fairly straight away.
I learned to hand sharpen in less than 2 graver blanks.
I actually learned it sooner,but didn't know it,because i was not recognizing when I broke a tip,but thought it was bad sharpening.
I think EVERYONE,should watch Lynton Mckenzies first video,and see how very simple it is to learn.
Actually,Ray LeTorneau,explained ,over the phone,what exactly was happening at the cutting edge,what causes burrs,etc.,
that little talk,helped me figure out what i needed to accomplish in sharpening,from the view point of machine bits.
The hardest part of hand pushing is recognizing when to STOP and sharpen,and using an high enough power in the loupe,while inspecting the tips.
The greatest thing keeping people from trying it,is ,you guessed it,we engravers.
By making it seem so impossible,or that it will take the rest of your life,or ,its a waste of time.
OK,yours is bigger than mine.
But mine works ALL the time,yours needs the vacuum pump to come to life.
mike

 

[silverchip]

Shouldn't engraving be looked upon today as fine art paintings and the canvas is what we engrave upon? Isn't it up to the artist to decide what medium they like and don't they all have a favorite paint brush or palette knife ect.? It really does boil down to the individual that is doing the work and not the tool in their hand that translates the idea in their mind to the work for the world to see.so if you can do great work with a screwdriver and a pocket knife or the most modern of power assist tool,you have my respect and admiration for your efforts,because you are then an artist and a craftsman.
The guy that sent the Email to Sam probably couldn't tell the difference with out being told,he just needs an art lesson in modern technique!!!!!

 

[diandwill]

I have a copy of Lynton's first video. I have tried meditating to understand what is on it, but it didn't help. I wonder if I should buy a VCR?

 

[mrthe]

Mike, maybe you are right when you say
"But most who are able to engrave with air,cant pick up a burin and continue on."

but most of who only using a traditional method if use air can make the same quality work of fellow like Sam, Andrew or other great masters?

use an air assisted tool in not like have the harry potter's magic wand ,dont make you so a great master and we would all sincerely within the group of people using air power can be noticed varying levels like in the traditional way.


And whether if a friend asks to me how to go to Rome, you could answer "walking" but better take a train or a plane,is something honest in my point of view and I do not work or for the railroads or by the airport! XD

 

[SamW]

I often use the airgaver as a burin and even with air it is more for control than power. That being said, I call myself a gun engraver...I have never engraved a hand in my life.

 

[Roger Bleile]

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary

Cheat:

1) To deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud.

2) To influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice.

3) To elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>

4) a:To practice fraud or trickery b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test.

The only way that I can equate power assisted freehand engraving with cheating would be in the case that a client insisted that the engraver use H&C or push and the engraver used something else in spite of the client's wishes. Equally if the engraver openly advertised "I use only use manual tools" (or other words to that effect) but secretly used power assisted tools, he or she would be cheating due to the misrepresentation.

In all my years of assocation with engraving, I have never had a client or even a potential client who cared one way or another about my tooling. After being an H&C engraver in the beginning, I never lost a client after changing to power assist for most primary cutting. I have had two or three people ask me about my tools who said (after my mentioning my Gravermeister or Lindsay PC) "Ain't that cheatin'." None of them were remotely potential clients. After I answered "Who's being cheated?" there was some hemming and hawing about followed by "s'pose nobody."

As most of you know, I am personally acquainted with many engravers in the US and Europe. A small number of these engravers have made it a point of advertising "Traditional Hand Engraving With Hammer and Chisel..." or other words to that effect. Some have even gone as far as publicly denigrating engravers who use power assisted gravers as "not true hand engraving." If you think about it, these folks have painted themselves into a corner. In an effort to make themselves seem superior by dismissing power assisted freehand engraving they have forever closed the door on their future use of any up to date tools unless they recant their earlier assertions. Thus they must stick to their original position to the bitter end.

Mike the tundratrecker has asked "How many of you siding with Andrew, can use a push graver?" "Or even TRIED to learn it?"

In answer to the question, I for one can. It may interest Mike to know that after learning H&C pretty well, I struggled and stabbed myself for quite some time trying to manipilate the burin in steel. As it turned out it was my use of the Gravermeister that improved my hand skills to the point that I became realtively adept with the burin. The image below is of a steel buckle that I cut in about 1980entirely with a burin. I had no training in the use of a burin but after two years with the Gravermeister I developed a feel for it.

Mike also asserted "But most who are able to engrave with air,cant pick up a burin and continue on." I would like to know what research he bases this claim on. I personally know many engravers (starting with my brother) who primarily cut with power assist who are also skilled with a burin. I don't think that anyone here has said "don't learn to use a burin because with power assisted tools they are useless." Many who initially learn with a power tool will naturally experiment with the burin and learn its use as I did.

"These power tools and jigs are just big business." I guess you can call a one man shop in Nebraska or Michigan, or a small factory in Kansas that has a dozen employees "big business" if you want to but I doubt that any business consultant would consider anything related to freehand engraving as big business. I for one admire these small business entrepreneurs who saw a need and filled it. I know most of these folks and none of them are getting rich though I would be happy if they did.

JJ Roberts said: "I still use the hand push gravers when engraving animals,birds,trees,foliage & sky scapes. When I engrave the scrolls and when removing the background I use an Airgraver. At my school if a student wants learn the traditional H&C and hand push graver no problem. J.J." That is my position exactly!

One more thing that no one has mentioned is that there are things an air graver can do far better than H&C. As an example, in recent years I have done lots of flare cutting. While deep beveled flare cuts are possible with a burin in soft silver it would be virtually impossible in modern gun steel and H&C would leave heavy progress marks. Also, I don't know anyone who can sharpen a graver with a Lindsay parallel heel by hand, though it is not impossible. I do it with a template but it can be done with a dual angle fixture. The LPH gives very clean cuts without heel drag and is perfect for flare cutting as I do it. The image below is the head of a hammer that I flare cut for John Rohner.

BTW Mike, like Doc Mark, I am also interested in seeing an image of something you've engraved using the tools and techniques you are so passionate about.

Cheers,
Roger

 

[Christopher Malouf]

I call myself a gun engraver...I have never engraved a hand in my life.

ROFL!!! That's hillarious Sam! The best post in this entire thread hand down. I did actually engrave a hand once - twice really. .... it was my own and by accident and when it was all said and done and the bleeding finally stopped I could've cared less what tool did it.

One more thing that no one has mentioned is that there are things an air graver can do far better than H&C.

... and vicey-versy Roger. There are things that H&C does that no air assisted handpiece can come close to doing. I am learning H&C for certain specific tasks such as heavy background removal on softer materials like aluminum. The reason is efficiency .... one or two whacks with a hammer move or remove more material than these pneumatic air pieces will ever be able to.

I for one am not looking forward to the day when the use of the hammer is gone and it has been replaced with 100% air driven tools tethered to a compressor. During this period of "transition" to newer technology we still have some of the old school engravers among us and a great opportunity to sit with them and learn how it's done. If not for the sake of tradition it should definitely be for the sake of learning to use a tool that can out perform air assist in ways which equate to faster results and more MONEY. In some of those hard core traditionalists, although I sense a feeling of deep sadness that the old ways are being replaced, they are far more excited about a new generation of engravers taking an interest in the art and eager to share their techniques. Those are guys who really matter in my book as they see the big picture and know it is the art itself that trumps what is actually used to drive the chisel into the metal. Those who tend to outright trash the new technology tend to make their bread as "something else" first (like a goldsmith in the UK who sparked this discussion) rather than engravers who fully embrace the art AND can actually turn a profit doing so.

 

[Sam]

Brilliant post Roger, and right on the money.

Apparently Mike doesn't want to share photos of his engraving. I'd sure like to see it and based on the number of private messages and emails I've received, a few dozen others would like to see his engraving as well!

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

Wow! Talk about a heated discussion!

 

[Weldon47]

Yes, I too am a bit curious! Mike; If you don't mind, how about a pic or two? I know you have posted quite a bit & it seems only right that you should share some of your work with us!
I for one enjoy seeing engraving & don't mean to put you on the spot however, I would sincerely like to see what you are up to if you would share!!

Thanks,
Weldon

 

[Roger Bleile]

Chris Malouf said:

"... and vicey-versy Roger. There are things that H&C does that no air assisted handpiece can come close to doing."

AMEN! There is a place for every tool for those who want to be a completely versatile engraver.

RB

 

[Red Green]

I don't think anyone should try to box Mike in about his work. I have never seen any post where he claims to be anything but an engraver and I think he has a right to his opinion. If he's a good, bad or just a good talker and actually little action when it come to doing the work that's his business and I believe sharing your work is optional.

Bob

 

[diandwill]

It's just that it is easier to be critical if no one has any comparison. If I had never posted my work, I could claim to be a better engraver than Sam, the Bleile brothers, Phil Coggan. But, having seen my work, you know better. If Mike shows his work, it would substantiate his position... or not.

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Roger,
As always,great post!
I was ,as always(unless otherwise stated),am speaking in generalities.
And definitely not coming down on ANYONE about marketing tools or schools.
Or that anyone was being directly taken advantage of.
Just that i feel the new engraver can so easily fall into the way of thinking that they need to have to spend a lot of money on tooling or be forever held back.
I didn't mean to imply there were no "hand"engravers out there Roger,but among the modern school of engravers,especially self taught,as i've seen on the forums anyway,are not able to use both types of tools.
Mitch mentioned in another post that the world would be deprived of a lot of good artists if we were only allowed manual tools,I agree.
How many are being deprived because of the "air " given on the forums that the best ,easiest way to get going, is to go with completely modern tooling.

I have also said ,in other threads,and will state again.
I am in NO WAY saying its wrong or uncouth or a negative thing to use modern power tools.
When i go deaf,or other physical ailments REQUIRE it,i may use them too.

BUT,if I do,i will ad it to my adverts.

But lets be honest here.

Look at the FEGA logo, The Cafe logo,what do they have in common.

There is a FEGA engraver I know of,that said he NEVER learned hand sharpening.
He also told me i was wasting my time to learn the old way.
All this from a guy who studied through the NRA School.

He told me all of this because when i first started , I asked him to show me how to sharpen.
He said to go buy a hone set up from GRS,he couldn't help me because he never wasted his time to learn it himself.

I said before,air gravers and turbines should replace or be added to the logos.
Other wise,your using the romanticism of the manual skills to your advantage,but then not using them,in the work.
So ,you are in effect "advertising the use of "hand/manual" tools,when in fact there is cheating going on ,by the standards you stated above,so elegantly,i might add.
Thats my concern in the matter.

While your at it,add pantographs,and manual milling machines,etc..... As they ARE controlled by the hand,and meet all the criteria ,of the majority logic,of "hand".

If you guys cant or wont recognize and acknowledge the facts of the issue we are talking about,Why have the discussion.
You seem to get defensive,as if I were personally attacking people.
Quit being so defensive,your overzealous defensiveness could be construed as if you had some reason to be defensive.
If you really believe in your viewpoint,theres no need to be so defensive,and no reason NOT to be honest and upfront ,in advertising,and practice,in what type tooling you use.

I see over and over when new people ask what is needed to get going,hardly any one recommends starting slow and cheap.
Its ,buy this ,buy that,then that,then that,...................and on and on.
Pictures of a lot of the benches from people on forums shows like more of a machinists bench,than a hand craftsmans bench.

Many are now seemingly wanting me to "Qualify" myself/my point of view,by showing the work i do by manual tools.

That also shows your unwillingness to debate the "issue(s)" and want to again go on the defensive by deflecting the focus from the issues and make it personal.

I could put pics on line,but i have no reason nor feel a need to impress anyone,qualify myself, get an attaboy, or anything of the sort, that would only detract from the discussion.

mike

Wow! I started typing after Rogers BIG post,guess i should get a power typer,this thing is way slow,.

 

[Red Green]

How? He has made no claim to be a Master of any kind, he has only stated his opinion, all you need is typing skill for that. He has made no claims that requires him to prove anything.

 

[tundratrekers@mtaonline.n]

Funny,How so few have said that they even gave it the old college try with the burin,before feeling the NEED for power.
mike

 

[diandwill]

I hand sharpened and hand pushed for 15 years, as a jeweler. My bright cut setting was good, not great, and the 4 engraved pieces I made for my wife are truly mementos. Since I took a GRS course, bought a gravermax and powerhone there are hundreds of pieces that show my talent, or lack there-of. I make 2 kinds of pieces, those that are hand engraved for commercial purposes, timed and charged for the time, so the shorter the cheaper, and those that are more 'art' pieces, done without time consideration. The difference is earrings for under $80/pair and pieces that cost over $3500.00. It wasn't feeling a 'need' for power, but a realization that if I wanted to engrave professionally, I needed to be able to provide a quality product in a reasonable amount of time!

 

[Red Green]

I think you do deserve the Brown Arm Award for 2012, wear it in good health.


Bob

 

[Dulltool]

I see no need for further "debate" or discussion..... Mike, you are just simply wrong.