An email I received today

[Red Green]

It may be they think Sam's work is so well done he uses a machine to engrave. All that squinting and tapping may have an effect on you after a while, you may lose sight of what's going on. I think the only valid point they have is manual labor engraving is not done the same as pneumatic engraving. Perhaps they just want a handicap, I say we give them all the extra time and effort they require, it's only fair.

Bob

 

[Marcus Hunt]

A few years ago I was doing an engraving demo at the CLA Game Fair and a guy saw my GraverMach and said "Oh you're using a machine, that's cheating!" So I put the hand piece down on the bench and said "Okay hand piece, engrave!" and gave it full throttle. Of course nothing happened except for a loudly buzzing hand piece. I looked at the guy and said something like "Shouldn't this machine be cutting a scroll? It's not is it?", "No," he replied, "So how is it cheating?" I asked. Of course he had no reply and had to admit it was still hand engraving especially when I stripped down the hand piece to show him all it contained was a piston which was in fact an internal hammer.

An there's the rub, if we are going down the "hand engraving" route then only hand push should be allowed because using a hammer is using something other than the hand to enable a graver to pass through metal more easily.

There is no doubt that air assistance allows more people to engrave because it negates a very steep initial learning curve and the building of muscle memory. Within reason most people, if they wanted to, could learn to hand push engrave. But there's the thing, progress is very slow and unless you have the dedication and desire to learn, or it's going to be your career, the majority of those people would give up because it's boring. You don't end up cutting a fairly crude scroll at the end of day 1; when you're hand pushing you are nowhere near that for weeks! So when beginners see results they are spurred on and enthused.

The Birmingham jewellery trade used to employ hundreds of engravers all putting a few bright sparkly cuts or a wiggle cut design in items such as rings and lockets, etc. This was very crude and often very basic stuff and they were cutting soft metal but by your correspondent's reckoning, Sam, they'd be classified 'hand engravers' and you wouldn't! Barking mad! There is no doubt in my mind that serving an apprenticeship using hand tools does serve the hand engraver well but it's very hard and demanding work and finding someone to train you is very difficult as is teaching yourself. Also, hand pushing took it's toll on me physically as gun steels got tougher. Air assistance helped alleviate those problems and allowed me to continue working. And I bet this guy wouldn't say to a gunmaker "You're not making a hand mad gun because you're using a mill and a lathe," would he?

Anyway, I hope when you come to the UK you're going to visit me Sam? Bring Abigail and make sure you're with me on the 2nd Monday of the month, then you can come to my local folk club. I'm sure with a bit of notice I can get someone to bring a banjo and Abigail can borrow a guitar no problem! I live in a beautiful part of England and would love to show you around for a couple of days if you have time.

 

[Red Green]

I missed your post Sam,

What is it those who insist that push and H&C is the only 'hand engraving' mean when they want others to learn 'traditional techniques' are they saying they think everyone should learn push and H&C first, if so why?

Bob

 

[Marrinan]

Marcus, Just being noisy but--I know that your father, before his retirement from engraving, used a Graver Max to some extent. Did your sister ever use the air assist before she stopped engraving? Thanks for your insite on this old topic. Fred

 

[DakotaDocMartin]

I live in a beautiful part of England and would love to show you around for a couple of days if you have time.

It certainly looks like a nice place to visit: YouTube: Oxfordshire Cotswolds

 

[Haraga.com]

I missed your post Sam,

What is it those who insist that push and H&C is the only 'hand engraving' mean when they want others to learn 'traditional techniques' are they saying they think everyone should learn push and H&C first, if so why?

Bob

Shawn Didyoung could answer this question. He recently started to bright cut by hand.

 

[Red Green]

OK, does he not do all his engraving by hand? What do you mean? Are you saying it is easier to do bright cut if you learn push and H&C first?

Bob

 

[silverchip]

I'll bet that there are not as many members in this "purist"hand engraving club today as there was a few years ago!!!!!!

 

[Red Green]

Perhaps the manual labor only fragment of the engraving world should not be referred to as "purist" without qualifying it with 'historical tool' or 'manual labor tools only'. As they chose not to move forward is it not illogical to continue to refer to them as if they were contemporary?

Bob

 

[JJ Roberts]

I still use the hand push gravers when engraving animals,birds,trees,foliage & sky scapes.When I engrave the scrolls and when removing the background I use an Airgraver.At my school if a student wants learn the traditional H&C and hand push graver no problem. J.J.

 

[a.khaksari]

Sam,
I think by improving technology, Art is also improving! They can't be separated!
For example, in last decades people have used Analog Cameras, But when the Digital Cameras appeared, the photographers preferred to use the Digital ones! Because the digital cameras help the photographer to take photo of some situation that last for 1 second or less, and never repeat! But by using a analog camera, he/or she may lost that situation and no one can enjoy by its photo! BUT!!! he/she should be a real photographer with a lot of experiences!
It's also the same about the engraving. The engraver can use the technology to create some beautiful works that is in his/her mind, Faster and with better quality!


Ali Asghar Khaksari
www.zoubingunsmith.com

 

[Red Green]

What irks me is it is not about the work, the 'manual labor tools only' purist cannot find fault with the quality, they wish to delegitimize the work of anyone who owns a power assist graver. They make the claim that a machine made the engraving not the engraver by saying 'it's not hand engraved' this is fallacious and should not be tolerated without challenge, these are opinions from engravers whose only authority is they chose not to use modern tools. They should not be allowed to delegitimize and marginalize your work publicly by making these claims unabated. I don't want extremists to tell me or the public what the tradition of hand engraving is, IMHO the true tradition of engravers is more likely to be to produce the best engraving possible with whatever tools you can, like you JJ.

Bob

 

[truehand]

Most of us here agree that palm push gravers and pneumatic handpieces both easily qualify as tools for "hand" engraving. ( I like to use the acoustic vs. electric guitar analogy myself.)
But, is there any dispute that a pneumatic handpiece is, in fact, a "modern" machine?
Is there any dispute that palm push, aka "traditional", hand engraving takes a good deal more skill and dedication to master?

I think Mike makes a valid point that pneumatic assist engravers love to sell their work as simply hand engraving, that is, "the same way it's been done for hundreds of years"

If we find it hard to accept that a layman or a palm push engraver might regard that loudly buzzing handpiece as "cheating", we need only ask ourselves why and answer honestly, sans ego.

Personally, I give all due respect to those hand engravers who have the skill to produce works of engraving art with traditional tools (something I can not do btw) and if these hand engravers want to call me a cheater, I make no excuses or arguments. If someone watching me hand engrave with a handpiece said "that's a machine you're cheating", the only valid redemption, to my mind, would be to set down the handpiece and then pick up a palm push engraver (or H&C) and continue to do the exact same quality of work.

Dave

 

[Red Green]

So you are of the opinion that a tool by its limited design being the least capable of doing a job is the only legitimate tool and any 'machine' is cheating. And so to claim you honestly can do the job you must be able to master the simplest tool that can do it? A plane is a chisel machine for leveling wood. How many master carpenters can use a chisel as a plane? Using the poorest tool for the job does not earn you any respect in any trade or art that I know of, why should engraving be different?

Bob

 

[Haraga.com]

I feel for you Bob. You don't know what you don't know. You are right about some trades though. Farming is the one that comes to mind.
Arnaud posted a picture of something the he forged with a hammer a while back. I could have made a simple die to do the same thing. Because of what he did it with a hammer he got my respect!

 

[truehand]

Hi Bob,
I wouldn't say that a palm push tool is "limited" in capability..
I wouldn't say a pneumatic handpiece is cheating. ..but I wouldn't deny it either.
I was in business for my first 10 years relying solely on palm push engraving, I never got better than the type of engraving Marcus mentions in his post, just bright cuts and wriggle to sparkle up jewellery. Then I got a Lindsay handpiece and my ability to engrave *instantly* improved by 100 fold.
So, I guess it's a question of just what is being "cheated" ?

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Cheating??

All we are talking about is the delivery of power............with hand push it is your muscles doing the job. Hammer and chisel it's the hammer. Pneumatic it's a very slight reciprocating action. The 3 methods each have a different technique to use, that is all............So yes, it is all traditional engraving in every sense of the meaning.

Everything else remains the same. You still have to control and guide the tool giving it forward motion. There is no doubt that pneumatic power and a sharpening jig will get you over a hump initially but it won't do anything else.............It's not a magic bullet for anything.

Many a beginner has thought that buying a machine, or several machines and every tool under the sun, will somehow magically make them an engraver............... It won't.

What makes you a hand engraver is knowing how to use your tools effectively and to achieve the desired results. This takes time, observation, practice, knowledge, talent, skill, flair and imagination. Some people become really good at it and others remain mediocre, just as its always been and will always be.

That principle remains the same right across the board of all crafts and trades. Having a nail gun or hammer doesn't make me a carpenter just as a sharp knife and sharpening steel doesn't make me a butcher.

The concept of cheating or somehow being inferior or easier is a silly proposition.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ed Westerly]

This thread may never die, but just limp along, day after day, with each side thinking the other is wrong, and nobody ever changing anybody's mind. I wish it well.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I think for most of our customers, we are just wizards, able to manipulate metals so they have the texture we want them to have, but most humans never heard about those wizards

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Who did send an email the same day, as I was pretending it was me to LOL wit that. And I still LOL on that.

arnaud