where do scrolls come from

[John Cole]

Now I know just enough to know that the answer to this question isn't by a bulinoed stork under a bright cut cabbage leaf, however.....
Working on my scrolls while waiting for my stuff to arrive, I was wondering from what time period in history do our current version of scrolls come from? Rennisance or post rennisance, Victorian, Italian? A little bit of all the above? I know that there are different varieties of leaves and such that I will learn later, but from what I've seen (which isn't much at all) there are only a handfull of variations on the common scroll (vine and leaf) motif that is in current use and fashion.
I've done some historical studies in the past and have had friends that were into calligraphy and illumination. Vines, leaves and scrolls are all over the place from the book of kells through the german works and renisance era Itialian manuscripts.
Now, I'm *very* happy to learn the basics first, and take as much time and effort as it will require.
I'm just curious about the other types of forms that are out there as well. Maybe they are there and I'm just haven't found them yet
Now granted, learning the different current styles will more than likely be a lifetime of study, but I have a huge HMMM.....factor.
Hope these thoughts aren't too off base.

John C.

 

[Les Riddell]

before christ mate. i think you will find examples of engravings in armor and gold jewellery as far back as the building of the pyramids. the ancient mesopotamians first engraved in gem and common stone to use as seals to imprint there names and station in society. wheat lotus palm reeds vines cloud formations ect were used for inspiration back then just as they are now. if you take a quick look at arabic geometrical design you will see that 3 five fold symmetry in nature has inspired us through the last 10000 years and more. these are things that are innate in all of us but we ignore it and need to relearn it all to get back in touch with it.

 

[Ron Smith]

John,

I think Sam just showed us in another thread that they come from the universe, and it is the evidence of the begining spiral of life. Check it out! Plants came along way later and man's even later, but we (humanity) have been involved with it for melinium. Man's involvment is pretty rough sometimes compared to that example.

Cool stuff!!

Pretty impressive Sam. And you can look into a running brook and fine them too, or even in your bathroom sink. Whirlpools.

Us wierd engravers begin to see them everywhere, everywhere.

Ron S

 

[Sam]

Scrolls span the globe and are part of every culture on every continent, and have been for thousands of years. From a basic spiral to the stylized acanthus of later periods, scrollwork has evolved into the beautiful art form it is today, partly by engravers and also by stone carvers, wood carvers, and other designers.

My theory is that we are attracted to scrollwork's beauty and shape because of the Golden Mean ratio which we find in nature (like spiraling galaxies and plant growth). We simply find the shape pleasing.

Ron: Yep, they're everywhere! All you have to do is keep your mind's eye open.

Here's a photo I shot on the beach in Thailand a couple of years ago. Apparently crabs can do scrolls, too!

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

John, sure they come out of the universe like Sam shows. :big grin:

Some time ago I was asking myself the same question, and it is about Acanthus.

In

tread I posted some information about it.

It were the Greeks if I'm correct who used it a 2000 years ago to decorate the Corinthian pillars.

Nr 22 shows some of these first scrolls made by man.

arnaud

 

[Kevin P.]

Lots of petroglyphs are scrolls.
Kevin P.

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

John, here is a brief overview of the history of decorative arts relating to engraving as I have come to view it from my studies and travels.

Most of the "current" styles of scroll were developed by Greek artists.

You see modern looking Acanthus first around 400 BC, when the Art center of the western world was in Athens. By 200 BC they were producing work that we would think was related to "english scroll, victorian scroll or even american scroll" using our modern engraving terms.

To simplify my analysis, a lot of prechristian Greek Acanthus work is very round and flowing,with soft floppy leaves, like American scroll.The later Roman period Acanthus work is pointier like "Victorian" or MacKenzie scroll.

When Rome superceded Athens, most of the Art was still done by imported Greek labor, and by 200 AD they were producing work that is the basis of what we engravers call arabesque, or black leaf.

In this period these designs were adopted by the Arabs in Damascus, in the iron industry. After the conversion of the Arab peoples to the Muslim faith, images were banned in the Arab arts, and the style was even more solidified.

In europe, because of the influence of roman funerary art and the byzantine church, who both seeked to portray important persons as larger, and simplification of style to convey content to an increasingly illiterate audience (think dark ages) the ornamental styles evolved, or decayed with the rest of byzantine art.

The rediscovery of the classical styles and design in the renaissance led to baroque and Roccoco, which are little more than an elaboration on previous Greek styles, and added very little to the "structure"(think rules) of ornament.

The Golden mean and the ratio of Phi (1.618.....) was possibly first known by the Pythagorans, and was written about by Euclid in his Mathematical treatise "Elements" around 300 BC, and this certainly is a factor in the design of the scroll, at least to mathematicians, if not Artists.
Most likely the Golden mean was deduced from studying many geometric forms, possibly including scrolls.

A modern school of Geometry, developed by Mandelbrot, known as Fractal Geometry, explains how complex natural structures including landscapes, fishscales, our spinal column, and even complex ever repeating scrolls and leaves can be described by very simple equations.
Some believe nature uses Fractal Geometry to produce complex organisms from such simple codes as our DNA.

Perhaps our love of scroll work and classic design, may be closely related to Fractals, and our preference for the same timeless styles has a mathematical basis.
Something inside us that recognizes it regardless of time , place, or society

 

[Doc Mark]

Kevin's correct, there are several prehistoric cave paintings of scrolls. I truly believe that it's hardwired into humans to appreciate the beauty and symmetry of scrolls.

Mark

 

[Sandy]

On the wall in the classroom at GRS is what I believe that the ancients used as the basis for there scrolls.

 

[John B.]

Just my two-cents on the origin of scroll as decorative art.
I was taught that the scroll is a stylized depiction of the developing fiddlehead fern.
English scroll is a near perfect rendition of this fern in its early stage of growth.
Most other scroll shows it with the fronds (leaves) in the opening stages and the stem (backbone) beginning to unwind a little and become more open.
Scroll designs are found on the walls of pre-historic caves together with depictions of many types of animals.
These were done by the early hunter gatherer humans long before the introduction of agriculture. No one is exactly sure why these drawings were created.
Were they just decorative art for art’s sake?
That seems unlikely or they would have been in a more visible areas or habitations.
One plausible explanation is that they were totems, some type of early belief in their power to return the sources of food to these people.
From what we know animals were their main source of food and supplies.
Hides provided coverings and bindings and bones, teeth and claws for tools.
Wild berries, grains and fruits played a part in their diet and it is thought that the tender emerging baby fiddlehead fern was probably a very welcome source of fresh plant matter after a cold barren winter.
They probably watched the grazing animals to see which ferns and other things were safe to eat.

Other than the scroll many food items play a part in our traditional and historic artwork.
Acorns, nuts, fruit and berries, lotus, cattails and grains for instance are all valued foodstuff in some present and past cultures and are found in their and our present art.
Religion, totem, tribal or cult beliefs have played a part in the foundation and development of primitive art.
We have built, borrowed and expanded upon this early foundation and even have an example of this within our own engraving group.
Andrew Biggs has taken the ancient traditional Maori artwork of New Zealand and combined it with our modern Western world decoration. Evolution at work again.

Now, just don’t get me started on the origins of Celtic knot and ribbon work!!!!!
Pardon my ramblings, others have given their own beliefs on this subject.
It's all food (pun) for thought as no one will ever know the whole truth for sure.

 

[Sam]

Thank you Barry Lee and John B. I've added both of your informative posts to the Tips Archive.

 

[John Cole]

Thanks for all the input guys! Once again knowledge and humor mixed well with a dash of philosophy. I love this forum.
Now back to the pesky flat spots and stupid junctures in my scroll patterns....I need a bigger eraser

John C.

 

[JIA]

here are some infor on Arabesque, its so intresting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabesque

 

[Tom Curran]

Scrolls were long in use architecturally. This is a capital from Ostia ANtica, the old port city for Rome. I can only imagine scrolls are taken from nature. It is a structure that is far from random, it is designed by the plant or animal for a specific reason or need.

This image is a fragment from the Roman Forum, possibly a section of frieze.

http://thosrome.wordpress.com/

 

[Martin Strolz]

John,
look here, Karl Blossfeldt's famous photography. Just great!
http://www.soulcatcherstudio.com/exhibitions/blossfeldt/plate056.html
Martin

 

[John B.]

Martin,

Thank you for the link to Mr. Blossfeldt's photograph.
You are a wonderful researcher and a font of knowledge.
Thank you for taking your valuable time to post this.
I expect you are still very busy on your Grand Masters preparation.
That should be a wonderful experience for those lucky engravers.

Best regards,


PS, I hope your photograph can be added to the Tips section, Martin.

 

[John B.]

Sam,
Thanks for moving Barry and my bit to the tips.
Your picture of the crab's pattern in the sand and Sandy's GRS shell are just as worthy.
I'm sure we all realize there is no real way to be sure of the origin of scroll in art and decoration because it pre-dates history.
Thanks for the Cafe and the opportunity to yak about it over a cup of coffee.
Best regards,

 

[Martin Strolz]

John,
If you search for his book "Urformen der Kunst" you will find that copies of that one are extraordinarily high priced. But there is a cheaper source for the interested engraver here:
http://store.doverpublications.com/0486249905.html
http://store.doverpublications.com/0486400034.html

I am done with the preparations and look forward to a much interesting week :big grin:! Blossfeldt is mentioned in the 50 pages textbook I did for my students. Andrew Biggs helped me with the revision of the text. My peculiar English should be perfectly readable now, -Thank's again Andrew!! I also did a collection of 3 CD's full with best studying material for ornaments from the archives of the school. Excellent unpublished material... All tools and stuff is shipped to GRS already. Interested engravers just need to send an application to GRS and we will meet in autumn!

Best wishes,
Martin

 

[Weldon47]

Barry,

I bet you watched "Fractal" Rock as a kid (humor; hee hee!)

Weldon

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Interestingly enough the scroll/spiral developed quite independently in New Zealand. At best guess Maori have been in New Zealand for somewhere around 800-1200 years and that is as close as anthropologists can nail down the dates.

The evidence at this stage suggests that the originated from somewhere in Indonesia and migrated via Polynesia as there are certain characteristics and language similarities.

However their designs have grown quiet independently. When you see the earliest wood carvings they are quite crude and look very Polynesian. However, over time Maori developed their own unique style for Whakairo (wood carving) and Moko (tattoo) that is highly sophisticated.

This was developed in total isolation with no outside influences and by the time the early Europeans started visiting, and later settling, in New Zealand the generic Maori style was well and truly established. Originally the tools were crude and made up of stone and ponamu (greenstone/jade) and the wood carving was done with chisels and adze like tools and the work was highly skilled. With the coming of the Europeans and introduction of steel the work became a more refined but the style has stayed the same.

Moko (tattoo) was carried out in a chiselling manner………not dot work like most other cultures. When you look at the old photos and paintings by Goldie the moko looks carved into the face………..that’s because it was.

The spiral (koru) is loosely based on the New Zealand native infant fern and symbolises life/creation. It is the generic term given for spirals/scrolls in New Zealand and is used extensively in Maori wood carving and moko.

Cheers
Andrew