What am I doing wrong

[thughes]

Help. I'm trying to engrave a stainless steel buisness card holder. It's stuck in a bed of thermo loc on top of the aluminum small item holder thing I got from Decamillius I think. Then I warmed a blob of thermo loc and put it inside and mashed the lid down as much as possible.

Problem is I can't get halfway around one scroll without the point breaking. I'm using that 116 universal of Steve's and I've really liked it from my limited knowledge. Of all the practice I've done on GRS practice stuff, dog tags, steel, brass, copper, a little sterling silver, I've never had a point fail, so I'm think (maby incorrectly) that it's not a technique thing. I've about screwed it up from the point breaking and my inexperienced hand skidding of all over the place. But fortunately they are cheap and I got 2. But I can't imagine they are made of real tough stuff.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Go back to Chris DeCamillis store and purchase some of his HSS steel gravers. I have tested it and so do several others here. Stainless steel is hard to engrave. A carbide don't work neither as the point will break too.
If you use the HHS I'm referring to, don not high polish for stainless steel, works better when finished on something like a 1200 grid wheel. And don't forget to use some lubricant too.

arnaud

 

[Dave London]

Try to dub the point, hold the graver vertical after it is sharp and then drag it about 1/2 in on a 600 grit stone. This will put a vary small face on the point making it stronger. Good luck

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I did a bit af searching and here is a tread on that subject.
And here is another one

This is a watch case I did using Chris HSS

arnaud

 

[mrthe]

Like say Dave, dubbing the point will work well with carbaltx ,maybe yo can try too to sharp the face at 50 degree instead of 45,a graver with a 50 face and the dub point is very different when you work with stailess steel,you will break less the point and the cuts will be more easy to do.

 

[thughes]

Thanks, I guess I'm not quite sure what dubbing the point really is.

 

[mrthe]

i dub in this way, you have to sharp the graver like ever ,after that you take the graver in you hand and with the finest stone that you have (or lap) i use the 2000 you hold it perpendicular to the stone (90 degree) and draw a 2 mm wide "W" on the surface of the stone,this will create a micro 90 degree face in your point,try it is very simple,is more simple to do than explain it hehe

 

[Red Green]

The condenses of experienced engravers seem to believe this is part of the learning process, learning to deal with unforgiving materials. If it were I because of my limited experience I'd say find a new project, it's hard enough to learn without stacking the cards against yourself.

Bob

 

[Andrew Biggs]

It may not be your graver. Points do break and wear down. That's just a natural occurrence.

It may be the steel you are working on. Not all stainless steel is the same and some of it is downright nasty to work with!!!! A lot of those stainless items are made with some sort of industrial steel that is almost impossible to cut.

The other thing can be vibration. If there is an air pocket under where you are cutting the thinness of the metal can cause the point to bounce back at you which will break tips like you wouldn't believe.

My first suggestion would be to reset the card holder you are working on and eliminate all vibration.........if it is still breaking then you will have to start thinking it is the steel.

If you are using a carbide graver change it for something else. The Glensteel gravers work well in stainless. They have a tendency to wear down as opposed to breaking. However, they do break as well.

If that doesn't work............... then you know it is the metal that is the problem.

Just make sure that you experiment on the ruined card holder with all this before trying the next one.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[thughes]

Andrew,
I thought it might be the vibration at first, so I took it apart and set it up again, but no luck. And not that I've done that much, but I've never broken a point. And I mean I can't cut a quarter of an inch before it's gone again. I can't believe they would make a card holder out of such tough stuff, but I'm beginning to think that's what it is.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I got caught by a similar thing. I was working at fabricating shop and they had some scrap stainless sheet. So they gave me some to take home and play with. It was similar grade to what they make stainless bench tops out of....................and it's still sitting in my garage with a few scratches where I tried to cut it.

It's not a sign of cheap or inferior grade. It's just a sign of what is good for the final product.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[oiseau metal arts]

i was having a unusually dificult time with a piece of stainless steel and was told to check to see if it was magnetic. 400 series stainless (406, 410, 416) are magnetic and will engrave nicely. nonmagnetic 300 series (303, 306) was a pain to work with. its cutable but i had to slow way down and spend a ton more time sharpening. like andrew said the glensteel, HSS, and a cobalt drill bit i made into a graver lasted the longest.

disclaimer..... im just using numbers of steels ive worked with. im no metallurgist, (heck i had to lookup how to even spell that word) i just try to cut the stuff.

 

[Artemiss]

400 series stainless (406, 410, 416) are magnetic and will engrave nicely. nonmagnetic 300 series (303, 306) was a pain to work with.

I always thought that ALL stainless steel was non-magnetic!
I was also under the impression that 316 was the 'stainless of choice' for engravers!

Did I get it wrong?

Not sure if this is relevant, but I use the glensteel gravers, and as Andrew says, they tend to wear down, rather than break.
However, I resharpened an old graver a few weeks back. Started using it, and found the tip kept breaking. I eventually came to the conclusion that at some stage in my learning curve of 'how not to sharpen a graver', I'd overheated it.

I have no idea if this could be the reason, but it's my latest theory anyway. :thinking:

Jo

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Jo

416 stainless is the nicest to cut from my experience. Most 400's are. I'm not sure of exactly what number stainless GRS uses (I've forgotten) for their key fobs etc but it's in the 400 range somewhere and very pleasant to cut..

The 300 series will cut just fine but can be harder and "sticky". You just need to be a little more patient with it. 316L (cast) stainless is generally what most decent watches are made of because of it's anti magnetic qualities and it won't rust.......... but it's very gummy and almost impossible to get a good edge on the cut so the engraving needs to be finished off with a stone or grit paper. And yet the 316L (stamped) can be very nice to cut.

I've experienced the same thing with gravers. Overheating will do it as you say. But occasionally you seem to strike a dead spot in a graver and once you are past it you're back in business. It's rare but it does happen.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[take-down]

Hi Andrew
Where in NZ do you get any of the 400 grade stainless from. Being in the eng game I have asked all my usual suppliers with no success
Cheers Graham

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Graham

I brought my stainless from GRS. Here's the link. The stainless is 410 and very nice to engrave and work with.

As far as I'm aware, and I could be wrong, you can't get theses specialty metals in NZ. Nobody stocks them. A knife maker I know in Kaikoura get's all his steel in from the USA.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[unclejim1955]

The problem I always catch myself in with stainless is pushing the graver, particularly after do a lot of work in softer material. Make sure that you are letting the graver do the work and not pushing it. I've never tried dubbing because this is the first I've heard of it, but I will and it makes sense. Using a 50 degree angle has helped me as well.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi unclejim

Try a 55 degree face angle. It will work even better.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[James Roettger]

I've done those stainless card cases. I use carbalt tip at 115 Lindsay point geometry and dubbing and it works fine. Doing the work under a scope helps to prevent tip breakage. I also use shellac to mount the object as it is much harder than thermo plastic and doesn't suck up any impact energy like plastic does.

 

[unclejim1955]

Thanks Andrew, I think it was you that told me to be sure I wasn't pushing the graver a while back as well. takes a conscious effort, but sure made a difference.