The results are in!

[Richard Hambrook]

response

Wow, I didn't realize that this would have caused such a huge response. That's good and bad I guess. I agree whole hearted about enough with the tool wars. I guess I didn't realize there was such a thing. I feel like I just walked into a war that I didn't know existed. My sincere opologies to anyone whom I may have offended. I was simply just giving an "opinion". I new some people may not agree but hoped they may respect it. After all, its just an opinion! I have just found something that I feel makes me a better engraver. Even if it is because I am more comfortable with it. Call it a "romance period" if you like. My response to that is I've been married for 14 years and I am still in that romance. I never thought that after being a Marine for eight years that I would get offended easily, but some of these responses have done that. I greatly admire and look up to all of you and I mean "all of you". Sam was the very one to really ispire me and I thank him for that. Marcus and Ken, I have admired your work since I first started engraving. Chris DeCamillis, you are also one I need to thank in my long list of people to thank! All of you that said that the tool doesn't make you a Master are correct. I have been engraving for almost eight years at Browning and A business at home. You can only imagine the amount of hours I have placed on the bench and I have a lot still to learn. Whenever I teach someone to engrave, I alway start them out with a hammer and chisel. That is where the real art is and I would hate to see that be gone forever. I am not one to post pictures of my work only because I have a problem with feeling never completely satisfied. Maybe I will show something soon.

Best of luck to all of you.
Rich Hambrook

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

I have been tripped up on wording again, here I am trying to learn Italian and I have'nt even mastered english. I just meant older than me, I did'nt mean to say it as though you guys are ready for the rocking chair or anything. Brian

 

[Tim Wells]

Richard, there is absolutely nothing to apologize about. You and your shop collectively tried both tools and gave an objective opinion about your collective and individual findings based on your own first hand experience and not word of mouth. No one here or anywhere else can argue that; you discovered what you discovered and that is that. Thank you for taking the time to honestly give them both a fair shake and also for posting it. Positive excitement and enthusiasm are good things.

To me it isn't offensive at all. Also I have yet to see anyone have a real "elitist" attitude toward their Lindsay and I read both forums daily, every post. People often misconstrue what the author of a post is trying to say and I'll add this to the mix; we all need to thicken up our hides because this is rediculous.

Not one person that I've seen has indicated that there is any "magic" to any of these tools, hell, they are tools for pete's sake and nothing more. So when I read posts implying that there are actually folks out there in engraving land that are truly under the impression that any given tool will make them a master, it is silly. We as humans tend to want to read into what people say or write rather than take things at face value. I think we need to steer toward the face value direction If I may be so bold to say so. What John B said was and is true, only time and application of proper effective tecniques will gain us any ground, and that ground needs to be covered with little metal chips knee deep.

I have a deep respect for all the "older" fellas as well as the young whipper snappers (that ain't you Sam ) because we all love this stuff called engraving or we wouldn't be into it. There are novices here all the way up to the best there is on this planet; all on the same forum, just think about that a moment.

We embarrass ourselves with the carrying on that goes on here sometimes because one person will write an honest account of a tool critique and then someone will read it, take it as an assault as though the original author made his post in a snide way. Then the second guy will fire back something slightly or completely out of context with the originals intent and then the third guy will echo the second guy because he agrees with the second guy without really trying to get to the meat of what the first guy was trying to convey. There have been times that folks loyal to both camps have made posts deliberately to thumb the nose at the other and that is unfortunate, juvenile, and unnecessary for all it does is damage.

I'm going to be the first to mention this out loud because I know it is common knowledge to a lot of us but all have remained silent. I'm just so tired of all the skirting around the reasons why this keeps perpetuating itself I feel compelled to touch on it just a tad. This is not to point fingers, it is merely reality.

There are some things going on about possible patent infringement and so forth that we all need to stay out of as it really isn't our business and we don't have all the facts to boot. That to me is really what started all the recent tool wars as they have become known. People rooting for the little guy against the folks rooting for the bigger fish. This ain't our place at all and we should all bow out gracefully before feelings are hurt and folks are divided. It ain't worth it.

That issue will work itself out in time, until then we would all be wise to cool our heels so to speak and stop being so danged sensitive every time a person reports what they have found. I didn't take the objective critique that Richard posted as a Lindsay advertisement, I took it as an objective critique from an honest man trying to do a good thing and he got nipped at for it somewhat.

The long and short of it is that some folks write, talk, or articulate better than others, and so it goes with human nature. God loves them all despite their inadequacies and so do I. Let's all breath deep and let it out slowly and cut each other some slack when we read. If we don't like what someone said or can't use it then just be a gentleman or lady about it, ignore it and go cut some scrolls or better yet, draw some. Good point BH. I need to go do some of it myself. Life is good.

Respectfully, Tim Wells

 

[coincutter]

There is a better way and it comes with it's own stand and no discussions.

 

[mbroder]

There is a better way and it comes with it's own stand and no discussions.

Love it!

 

[mbroder]

When someone buys product A, they don't want to here that product B is better. It's human nature. It doesnt matter the price or the scale, it's that way on every level. If you choose to buy a Ferrari and someone tells you that their Lamborghini is better, you may be offended. If you buy a Chevy truck and someone tells you that their Dodge is better, you may be offended. Bottom line is that if you are happy with your product buying decision,and are enjoying it, you shouldn't have buyer's remorse because someone else says that they like their's better. Be happy for them and be happy with yourself. Now get back to cutting...

 

[Richard Hambrook]

O.K. guys and girls,
I don't like like posting pics but I guess I need to get rid of my insecurity. So here is two. 2 colors of gold and silver all in raised inlay. The second one was a challenge being stainless!

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[Dave P]

Ok Rich. That's pretty good, but show us something you did before you got the Lindsay tools

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

Fantastic Rich, it even looks Belgique! I see you learned your lessons well from the Ron Smith Masters class. Keep up the good work.

 

[Steve Adams]

Hi everyone, can a neutral party jump in here? I engrave dies and do sculpting mostly, and dabble a little at hand engraving, but recognize the legitimacy in the arguments presented in this discussion. I have a high respect for the gun and knife engravers on this site. I am in awe of their talent. The most significant tool in the arsenal of any craftsman and artist is themself. I think we can all agree we are judged by our results, and not the method we used to get there. Whatever tools you guide with your hands become an extension of your heart, soul and passion for the trade. Having been in my trade for almost thirty years, I have seen equipment and tools come and go, but it always comes down to the person using the tool. A tool is just a bridge, a physical form keeping us connected to our work. Some become masters, some never will, but it isn't the tool that determines that. In the end, it is the determination, skill, persistence and patience of the engraver themself. Stating a personal preference is fine, but everyone has to find out on their own what suits them. To each his own.

 

[Lee]

Rich,

Very stylish and tasteful. I'm colorblind so this is an honest question. Where did you use the different gold colors? Great birds. I never thought about using silver on the wings that way.

 

[Tom White]

Rich,

Very nicely done. I love the contrast of the gold and silver to the blue action. The work on the stainless is also nicely done. I like them both and would be very proud if they were in my collection.

Tom White

 

[jimzim75]

Is it chilly in here or is just me?

Ya know, there are times when ya just don't want to go to the bench and work. Something strikes you as really funny.
You would like to pay tribute. This is one of those times.

You guys are tripping around so hard trying not to offend one another or the subject. I don't know what
to make of it. I think I'll buy a new system, and just use it and not tell anybody that I got it.
I'll just chalk it up to sheer inspiration, and the fact that I have enough account$ that I do anything I want
in my spare time. Including making mock ups of the new 160,000rpm Hart Attack with optional cup holder.

There is also a jet hover pack in case you want to touch up Mount Rushmore.
A GPS system so you can get the lines straight, or curved without elbows.

I have to be respectful and grown up all day with customers. I have to not blank out when a beautiful bride is shopping
in a low necked blouse and learns over to see a model ring. I have not tell jewellers that they can't defy gravity when designing
earring,or maybe the fifty year old girl, she shouldn't try to were such a heavy pair. I have to not tell Jewellers that I'm not their
personal banker. I have to not tell them that they can't spell and that there's a big difference between fonts.

When I come to cafe' , "I can relax". I can even have a beer while I'm reading and not feel guilty because it's not on the diet.
I got the jeweller's spread and I don't care who knows it. I would suggest that you all just relax.
It's all just work and it will be there tomorrow. You are feeling sleepy, yes very sleepy. You want to relax.........
Your so so sleepy. When I count to ten you will be totally asleep........

After you wake you will buy the 160.000 Hart Attack with optional cup hold from Jim..............
It will make you happy and you won't know why....................

When you see the shining face you will wake!

Jim

 

[vilts]

Jim, I love the GPS idea! For me it's so hard to make long and smooth cuts, maybe GPS enabled tool will help me out... And with that pneumatic drill, or whatever it's called, we can engrave some scrolls on fields so everyone can admire them from Google Earth. Yes, that would be nice.

 

[jimzim75]

Hi Vilts,
The boys with really big toys in my neighbour hood like to take pictures of their farms about a mile
up in the air. They sign there names on the land using a John Deer with a thirty foot cultivator.
They are some of the poorest multi millionaires I know. So why not an engraver or two. Maybe a nice
Upright French script with lots of loops.

Jim

 

[Swede]

(Careful, there are landmines everywhere; deep breath)... Tools absolutely do make a difference. I'm sorry, but it is true, and frankly undeniable. A rusty nail is better than a rock, and any pneumatic tool is better than a rusty nail. Given: a tool CANNOT turn one into an artist that produces objects of great beauty, and depth. That requires a soul, and much practice and dedication with a pencil. It is fun to imagine one being REQUIRED to submit paper and pencil samples of your work before getting a "license" to own an engraving tool. Of course that will never happen, but a lot of this tool war stuff would diminish.

Much of my background is in machining with tools such as lathes and vertical mills. Tool choice is often critical to success. There will always be masters who can produce outstanding work on a cheap $400 lathe that still has foundry casting sand in the headstock, but if I take a raw, eager beginner, and put him to work on a cherry Hardinge HLV or Monarch 10EE lathe, the work he does will be better than if he used the cheap imported machine.

It is human nature to debate hardware, and I doubt it will ever go away entirely, nor would I want it to. I don't have a problem with it so long as it remains civil, and I believe it has. So rather than everyone saying "shut up and engrave", I think there is a place for discussion, so long as it doesn't overly distract, or dominate.

 

[KCSteve]

Another beginner piping up to say that there can be some magic in the tools.

As Swede noted, someone skilled can stretch the capabilities of their tools, sometimes in remarkable ways. But good tools can help stretch the capabilities of a beginner.

Air-assisted engravers are magic! You hold the little thing in your hand, press it against the metal and viola! there's a line!

Of course, as Marty noted, now that you've got a line, the question becomes: what are going to do with it?

Someday - after I've actually learned to engrave - I hope to have a chance to acquire some Lindsay gear. It's be nice to have a portable setup.

And of course in just about every one of these 'comparison wars' the correct answer to 'Which is better?' is generally: "Both". While I can't speak directly to this comparison I can note that I've seen some darn fine work done by skilled users of both systems.

Not to pick on Vilts but he's handy.

He's still a beginning engraver. I'm deeply certain that his engraving is better with an air-assisted tool than it would be without one, at least at this stage. But what really makes his engraving good is his artistic skill - the ability to use those magic lines.

 

[griff silver]

Great debate please go on.

I dont consider it a tool war, I consider it valued insight. I am primarily a "bright cut" engraver and I have never seen a Lindsay engraver in person. I am fixing to drive 4+ hours just to use one before i decide.I have used and like GRS tools I will continue to use GRS tools even if I puchase a "palm Control graver. the debate is great for a guy trying to decide what to upgrade to. I want to know if It can be control equally as well going over a curved surface where a normal hand position isnt possible? How about background stippling? Does the tool bog down when the full face of flat graver in in the metal? anyway thanks for the debate.
Im sure its different strokes for different folks, I think the fact that both tools have reflections of the others innovations lends credibility to both manufacturers. Griff

 

[vilts]

Holy smokes, Steve, you make me blush . My main 'creative' thing so far in my life was to write 'if { }' and 'foreach { }' loops in N+1 different languages and now you say I've got some artistic skills...

But yes, I can agree that air-assist is really-really helping me out. I think it was Sam who said that with air tools you learn in 1 week basic course what would take 1 or so years with hand tools. I think this is true. Maybe using palmcontrol or airtact would make the progress even faster, who knows. I can try it in maybe 2 years when I'm rich.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Richard

Absolutley beautiful work on those guns. I'd like to see more of it. The gold work has a very refined elegance about it.

Another thing that would be interesting (only if you get the time) is to perhaps start another thread about the Browning Arms Company where you work, how the jobs are commissioned, do you work to tight deadlines or given a free hand etc. and maybe a few photos of the actual workshop environment.

I fully realise that you can't talk or say too much about it because of confidentiality reasons with your employer, but an overview would make for some interesting reading.

Cheers
Andrew