Scroll Design

[Roger Bleile]

In another thread, Mack asked what was the best book on scroll design and naturally, everyone pointed him to Ron Smith's wonderful works. For those who may not be able to afford Ron's magnum opus right off, I can recommend "Firearms Engraving Theory and Design" by the late George Sherwood. It is available from FEGA for only $8.50 + shipping. This book is very basic and mostly is a series of photocopied images of various types of scroll and some basic instruction. Any beginner can benefit from this booklet until they can take advantage of Ron's far more comprehensive and instructive text. Here is the link to purchase it: http://www.fega.com/prodserv/BooksSC.asp?recidparam=247

While I'm on the subject of scroll design I'll make an observation from looking at pictures beginners submit of their first or very early scroll designs and engravings to the engraving forums. Quite frequently beginners are attempting scroll that is way too complicated for their level of skill and understanding. They apparently look at all the beautifully executed, complex and highly detailed works pictured here and think that is what their early efforts should be patterned after. Unfortunatly, the works of the great artist-engravers we see pictured here may have intimidated the rest of us from showing much of our routine grade of works which beginners would benefit from seeing but these simple scrollwork designs are what make up the bulk of work for American engravers. I know that when I finish a basic and inexpensive scroll engraving I never think of posting a picture of it when it may be next to a thread showing pictures of a gun that took 6 months of full time work for a top engraver to execute. As a result we mostly see beginners posting their early efforts for critique and works by some of the worlds best.

For beginners, I want to stress that they should keep it simple at first. Learn to draw proper concentric spirals freehand. Learn to fill the spirals with appropriately sized and shaped leaves. And learn basic simple shading. When you see one of the beautiful scroll designs engraved with complex overlapping and interlocking scrolls that have 40 shading lines in each 1/8 inch leaf, keep in mind that this is a level of work that only experienced engravers can pull off and that most engravers do not have a clientele who is willing or able top pay the $ for museum quality work. None of this is written to discourage anyone from seeking to achieve a high level of artistic achievement but beginners should understand that simple scrollwork well executed will always look better than highly complex designs the engraver was unable to pull off at an early stage of development.

Of course this is just my opinion but I hope it is of help to those beginning the long and arduous path of the engraver. I hope that by learning simple scroll designs well, that beginners will find a sense of success and not become confused and defeated by starting with designs that are too complex for their early efforts.

CRB

 

[Ron Smith]

I think you are rght on Roger!!

The basic structural aspects are the very most important things to understand as you emplied, and not to plug my books, I would like to say that if you will start with a basic simple leaf structure, break it down into components, learn each componant's shape, angles, and proportion, you will save yourself miles of time and struggle. Cement each of these componants or parts into your memory, and then it is just a matter of stretching them or slight alterations of what you already know into different structures and styles. You would be very surprised how a very slight mistake in angle, line length, or curvature will have it's effect in the outcome of the structure. If you don't do this it will effect the overall proportion of the structure enough that your assembled structure will not even resemble the one you are copying from. I can't stress this enough.

If you will spend your time as Roger said, and get down proper structure first, you will learn how to adapt to other styles much quicker. This is your foundation from which all else springs, and it must be correct or your stuff will look ragged and ungraceful, but with these proceedures I can have you drawing a nice graceful leaf and so on in a very short time.

I can't seem to get people serious enough about this.

There are a number of styles in my books and they are broken down into components for you starting with the simplest leaf so that you can begin at the very bottom and work up. This method of teaching works if you will do it, and they are essential to basic good design that will get you the approval of all the experienced engravers on this forum, and any conneseur of engraving that truly understands good designing. I point out the things that cause grace and the things that interfere with it.

I have watched students in my class come along in leaps and bounds by following my proceedures on how to understand scrolls and getting the main componnents into your memory so you can draw them at will without copying.

When I finally learned these principals, I would have given my right arm to know them when I was learning. It was like a brick hitting me up side the head knowing there was an effective way to teach drawing.

Excellent advice Roger!!!

You guys read his thread seriously, it is that important.

Forward!!

Ron S

 

[JCP]

Thanks Roger and Ron.

I am a beginner and What Roger said is exactly what I've been trying to do. I finally realized I (DONT) have the basics down yet and am trying to stretch the NOTHING that I know to far.

So I order Ron's book and am looking forward to getting into it. If I have problems with Ron's book, I know I can find him here for help

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thanks Roger and Ron

Ron, I made quit a jump the last two days in designing scrolls.
I ordered you book in Antwerp at Alexandre school, can't wait to have it.

Ron thanks again for your wise words, I've copied your words into a word document.

What I can say about my experience on scroll design ( but this counts also for al my other skills I've struggled with), one can't see thinks until he is ready for it.

What I mean is that the impressiveness I had when I first saw the fine engravings, makes place for a more structured view of these.
So not only did I capture your words in a word document, I have several amazing photo's on my PC, and everyday when I look at them, they become more clear to me.

Your book "Advanced Drawing of Scrolls" sure will help, but so does the "How to draw for beginners" Tutorial by Andrew Biggs's .
http://www.igraver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2910&highlight=How+to+draw+for+beginners

Arnaud

 

[Ron Smith]

You got it JCP, I'm here!!

My book?...........Here's the deal...........Go slow,......... start at the beginning, ...............focus on the details.............and work up.

Good luck!!!

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Roger, as a beginner in engraving I totally agree that one can't start at the end.
But as I'm 55, and very motivated, and having pretty good hands (goldsmith designer stone setter etc.), I thought that starting some hand engraving text on a silver plates is within my reach.
As I'm quite good in jewel smith work, I want more, so at the same time I start on a challenge to engrave a cheap knife (25 euro).
This is a challenge for me that gives me the drive to do things I can't do yet.
This Café is full of helpful people, I made some progress today on design, I barely sleep, I'm not shamed when I see my oldest designs I posted, so I go for the hard way and if I can't get it till there, I
will try to be satisfied with half.

In my country there are not so much master engravers, guns are not free to sell, only in the south of Belgium there are some arm factory's.

Every "jeweller" has a engraving-machine, I think even in my country there is need of hand craft.
That is what I do, making fine jewellery, although in Bangkok they work for 10 dollar cent an our.

But again, I totally agree that when newbies look at "museum quality" they think it is the "standard"

arnaud

 

[threefingerdave]

Roger and Ron
I have to say this is one of the better post that i have read.
It really makes a lot of sense

Ron,
I own your first book and it is very easy to follow
but i admit i want to jump to the back of the book and not do the beginning
I will go back and get the basics
again
thank you both for the very insightful and true observations.
Respectfully
Dave Jones

 

[jlseymour]

Roger and Ron,
Thanks I need to back off and regroup my thinking and drawing...
I also want to skip around and should stay with a study course...
Jerry

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Wise words indeed from both Roger and Ron.

My two penny worth...........

Whilst the advantages of air assisted tools cannot be praised enough, I am starting to come to the conclusion that something is lost to some people on the route to becoming an engraver when using them. These tools allow folks to start engraving proper in a fraction of the time it took in the past. Muscle memory is no longer required so the hundreds of hours that used to be spent on learning basic cuts are no longer there.

During this time using manual tools however, several things were accomplished. Not only the building of muscles to do repetitive cuts, but aiming to perfect the shape and size of cut and, most of all, someone to say "Not like that, like this," and show the apprentice/student what they should be aiming for. It built the discipline of having to sit for many hours doing the same thing day in and day out and this is something that the hobbyist engraver may struggle to ever overcome, purely because there aren't enough hours in a day.

The courses offered by GRS and other establishments are great. However, such a lot of knowledge is imparted to the student in such a short space of time so the student has to have enough self-discipline to go away and start building on what they've learned. This means when they get home they not only need to study all manner of scrollwork and lettering but sit and do the most boring and tedious of repetitive cuts. This will be difficult because they've already started cutting scrolls in class. In my view, this is probably too fast to learn properly but is required to help the student feel they've achieved something by the end of the week. It will feel like a retrograde step to the student to go away and concentrate on developing the basic cuts before moving on to scrolls but if they want to make it as an engraver (pro or am) this is something they really need to do.

As has already been stressed, the work the novice sees from the professional will never be attained without thousands of hours of practice. And even then I doubt there is an engraver alive who doesn't cringe when they see pictures of their early work. Engraving is a journey without an end and a life long education. If you go the self taught route you have to be even more disciplined in learning your basic skills and even more open to criticism and critique of your work. This is hard when we put so much of ourselves into something but the novice must be open to this. Sometimes it can seem blunt and even hurtful but we have to learn to push such feelings aside if we wish to advance in the craft. It took over 20 years before my father stopped saying "It's good but, if you just tried doing this..... it would improve it," and sometimes it bloody well hurt and was extremely hard to take but looking back I'm so glad he did.

 

[Mack]

That is fantastic. I have articles with pics that I cut out of magazines like the American Rifleman,on engraving, over the years and always wanted to engrave, but I never got around to it, mostly because I didn't know where to start. That is why I want to learn with the hammer and chisel and the push graver first. I want to learn to crawl before I walk and to walk before I run with this. I am 62 years old and will never be what some of these guys and you are Marcus, but it is not about a destination for me. It is about the journey, and man, I love it. Here is one of the cover pics.

 

[Ron Smith]

Arnaud, I didn't mean slow in your pursuit, I meant slow in your focus and paying attention to the details. It will save you more time in the long run, and you will actually get more out f it.

You are doing great!!

And I can see the finesse transfering to engraving from your skills with jewelry making, for you have adapted to the discipline of fine work even though I have not seen your jewelry work, I can tell.

Once you learn a discipline, the transfer of skill is much easier, so you might find that you will come along quicker with engraving than you thought. It is a constant amazement to me how fast students progress with good teachers that really know the proper things to teach, and the skill to get it across. Learning to teach has been a whole new experience for me, but very rewarding.

Forward!

Ron S

Ron S

 

[jack]

I aggree with what you all say about starting from the beginning. When I went to watch school the first 2 weeks were spent fileing and sanding down projects. About half the starting class were not with us at the in of this time.My Dad had told me ahead of time that this is the start of watchmaking at this old school. I look back over the last 50 years and am glad it all started this way. I use this training everyday. We did some engraving back then which was push. It took some time to train the muscles to control the graver. This is all great training which without you really knowing it, you do use it everyday. Jack

 

[Mario Sarto]

... I am starting to come to the conclusion that something is lost to some people on the route to becoming an engraver when using them.

Same here in my craft (goldsmith) - more and more is designed by computer and then cast. The young folks are going to lose the feeling for the metal. Time is money and they love to get quick results. Forging, embossing, bending - i mean going into the metal to bring out its best. Just for example a picture, a work from a student of mine after two years learning. It's a bit off topic, but I think, it shows how important discipline could be. Everything was done by her - from melting the metal to last polishing. Any point of the surface was done with one needle and a hammer. Doing that she must hold the tools always in the same position. Losing this denotes a bad result...

To start with the basics is the key for good work, i know that well. On the other hand it is also necessary to see, how good the worlds best engravers are. Pictures of your work are the icing on the cake. The more i learn about engraving the more i have respect to these workings. So please go on posting them...

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I do hope that I'm not misinterpreted when I say "I feel something is lost." It's not anyone's or anythings fault in particular, it's just the way of the modern world. It doesn't even mean there's anything particularly wrong with the modern way of doing things but if everything is judged purely on an 'instant results' basis (particularly by the new and novice engraver) a lot of the joy of seeing gradual progress can be lost. Like Mack says, enjoy the journey (it's going to be a long one) as well as arriving at the destination. And doesn't home cooked 'slow food' taste so much better than fast food?

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I think it's the old story of theory meeting practice. In theory to get where you want to end up looks simple enough. In practice the road is a lot harder than it looks.

With modern air tools I think we can acheive a fairly reasonable degree of cutting lines within a short space of time.................however all the other things like design and developing an understanding of the processes and the materials you're working with all take a lot longer.

At some point the lines of theory and practice converge and the two blend together. And that takes years of trial and error, moments of clarity and enlightenment plus some appalling mistakes. With every bit of theoretical knowledge gained you have to go away and practice it till it becomes routine, even for the simpilest of tasks. So on and on it goes.

All the knowledge is there in front of us with classes, books, videos, internet, forums, e-mails etc etc. But you still have to put in the time with the practical side at the work bench.

So, how do you climb Mount Everest?..................one step at a time.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[John B.]

Roger, Ron, Marcus and Andrew,

Thank you for your valuable comments and advise to all the up and coming engravers.
Starting at the start with an understanding of both design and tools lays a solid foundation.
It is something I have always tried to point out and spent years teaching with basic tools such as pencil, paper, push gravers and hammer and chisel.
That said, when time has been properly spent on understanding the sometimes slow and boring basics there are later advantages to be gained from power assisted tools, microscopes and computers IMO.
These can be great aids in allowing the older or experienced engraver who understands the basics to continue a productive life when the old body gets a little rusty and the eyes a little less sharp.
But as you all said, skipping over these basics only prolongs the learning curve.
I recognize that this may not be important to the older hobbiest engraver but it is a big mistake in the making of a working engraver.
Just my opinion, others may differ.

John B.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Marcus, I agree.
But if I'm still able to educate myself the way I learned all my other skills, it must be possible to learn faster than the time you have spend.
Sure your 1000 ours on one scroll are not wasted, but I think that also age is important.
When you where a boy, they probably told you what to do, you had to repeat them a 1000 times, but they didn't always telling you what was the target.
This is what I experienced when I was 14 and learned diamond carving (don't know the right English word for it, in Dutch it is "diamant kloven"). My teacher kept me busy, but I missed the point what was the target. Perhaps it is al about me, but I can't do things without knowing why.
And as I'm much older now, I have a very fine locomotion in my hands, I'm setting stones for 25 years, make high end jewellery, and all of that I learned myself. I almost never liked school, provably because I asked to many questions.
I know I have the gift that when I see something, I know how to make it.

Sure none of my engravings will end in the museum, so don’t my jewellery.

I didn’t have a 40 our course on engraving by Sam Alfano, That because I first want to have some basic education on engraving. Next year in the summer, Sam is coming to Antwerp, in the mean time I want to become as good as I can so he can learn me the things I’m struggling with. So If I spend 1550 euro for a advanced engraving education of 40 ours by Sam, I need enough basics on engraving. Those I can teach myself, with your help on the Café of course.

It is like if I teach you stone setting, because you are an engraver, fine tuned hands are that good that I can learn it in less than 3 months when you sit beside me. I also could tell you some very special tricks on it. Certainly enough for you as a stone setter to start.
But the learning proces of cource never stops. When it does, you better stop.
I have tried to learn stone setting to my daughter and I wandered why she could not drill 3 holes in line until I realised that I’m trained in that almost al my live, so I told here to start drawing free hand lines etc. Just to improve here fine motoric skills.

So I think you should make a difference between people who never did precise craftsmanship and the ones who did.

Of course, Sam learn you some basic of engraving in one week, and GRS want to sell the equipment for it. But you have to be stupid if you don’t know that 40 ours are not enough to make you a good engraver.

Only when you have a certain level on engraving, you learn more in that week.

I hope my English is clear, I’m not used to speak it.
very fine locomotion in my hands and fine motoric skills means fine tuned controlled hands, ore something like that.


arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Arnaud, I didn't mean slow in your pursuit, I meant slow in your focus and paying attention to the details. It will save you more time in the long run, and you will actually get more out f it.

You are doing great!!

And I can see the finesse transfering to engraving from your skills with jewelry making, for you have adapted to the discipline of fine work even though I have not seen your jewelry work, I can tell.

Once you learn a discipline, the transfer of skill is much easier, so you might find that you will come along quicker with engraving than you thought. It is a constant amazement to me how fast students progress with good teachers that really know the proper things to teach, and the skill to get it across. Learning to teach has been a whole new experience for me, but very rewarding.

Forward!

Ron S

Ron S

Ron, Thank you for the advice. I replied on an other reply before reading yours, but I think we are telling the same thing.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Mario, I think we both agree on the same issue.

arnaud

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Arnaud, I agree with you that of course it's possible to learn to engrave faster but to some extent this will be based on skills you may already have. As I say, use of air assisted tools cuts the learning curve considerably but my point was, is this necessarily a good thing?

I too hated school, asked to many questions, was told to just accept the answer or formula, and left as soon as I could. But my education at the bench was not just about cutting for cutting's sake. I have been around fine engraved firearms my entire life so I knew what the end goal of practicing the cuts was. As I say, a lot of the repetition was about building muscle memory as shape of cut. But being a slower process allowed time for things to really sink in.

In this 'want it all, want it now!' world of instant gratification we live in, understand that for engraving to truly become a part of your make up, it takes time. Scrolls after 3 days are all well and good but unless you also practice the fundamentals over and over until they are second nature you may find it a struggle or not fully understand what you're aiming for.

I taught myself to play the guitar 25 years ago but I didn't really learn it. I learned to strum chords so I could sing some songs. I knew only basic music theory. In going for only the end result, i.e. playing songs, I missed out on so much more. Stuff which would have made me a much better guitarist. I'm now learning bass, and you know what? I'm really learning it this time round, including all the boring scales and exercises as I now realise the importance of knowing the fundamentals and know it will make me a far better bassist in the long run.