Round gravers

[Kevin P.]

If you want the effect of the cut of a round graver do you first cut the line using a square graver and then cut over that same line with a round graver?
Meek says a round graver should not (never?) have a heel; any thoughts on that heel statement.
It seems that it takes much more power to cut through the metal; but I guess that’s because of the face size of the round.
Overall I’d appreciate any comments on ‘round gravers’.
Thanks
Kevin P.

 

[Ed Westerly]

Well, I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve with the round graver in your first question, so if you could elaborate, that would be great!
As far has never having a heel on a round graver, all of the round gravers I use for my flare cutting have a 20 degree heel on them.
I've never actually used one without a heel.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

As Bruce said............what are you trying to achieve?

The limited use I have had with round gravers is with a small heel to stop it from digging in.

I suggest you try both and see what you like the best. There is no right or wrong of it.

I think with this kind of thing there are no hard and fast rules, just what works for you best. For instance, Phil Goggan's gravers have no heels and are in the similar style to the Italian bulino gravers. His success with them is obvious.......................and yet other people struggle with that and hate them.

Likewise other engravers use a heel and prefer it that way because they feel they have better control with one. Every engraver has their own preferences that they develop over time.

At the end of the day there are three things that dictate your graver shape, size, angles and heel/no heel.

1. What you are doing with it.
2. Your personal preference
3. The end result

And of course that will vary from one engraver to the next.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Roger Bleile]

Since traditional blade shaped round gravers come in numerous sizes from #50 to #63, the force required to engrave a continuous line with one of them will vary considerably. You can probably push with a #50-52 in soft metal, but will need H&C :hammer: or a power assisted handpiece for the larger sizes, especially in steel or alloy gold.

I use a heel on my round gravers with the exception of some sculpting cuts that are not continuous lines more than a couple of millimeters. In that case I am using hand push in more of a scraping technique.

RB

 

[Tira]

I use heels on my round gravers. If I am doing a large lettering job (think motorcycles or car parts) I sometimes use an onglette first then go over it with a round. This is usually only needed (for me) in large lettering around a large curved object where the tip of the onglette helps the graver stay in the material and not want to skid as easily as the round. Sometimes I have used a 90 or 120 first and then go over with the round if that is the desired look. For small, easy to deal with letters or patterns on smaller, flatter surfaces I just use the round without any pre cuts (it still has a heel).

 

[Sam]

I heel my round gravers, too. The only exception would be stone setting where the round is used without a heel. I find a 15-degree lift works well for most of what I engrave.

 

[Kevin P.]

round graver

I try to response but I get deleted even though I signed in.
Kevin

I heel my round gravers, too. The only exception would be stone setting where the round is used without a heel. I find a 15-degree lift works well for most of what I engrave.

 

[Kevin Scott]

Lately have been trying to learn using round gravers for lettering. Yesterday spent about 2 hours with them. Results flawed but learned alot. Hand pushing with a 45 degree face angle, no added heel. Used them without first cutting with a different graver.
Seems to me the only advantage to a heel is that it raises up your wrist so it is not so close to the work.
Disadvantages are: extra time sharpening, and it changes the width of the cut since the sides are tapered.
I have some round gravers that have a bent tang. These give you more hand clearance. Like having a 15 to 20 degree heel lift.
Hope this helps. Kevin Scott

 

[j.c.]

Simple solution…. bend the hand piece!!
:biggrin::no::clapping:

By the way Phil’s method of sharpening IS “heeledâ€￾; at about 5 degrees lift…the lift (heel) is created by removing the bottom material, simply another method of “ bendingâ€￾ the shank for hand clearance.

j.c.

 

[jerrywh]

Ever try bending a carbide graver? I put a heal on all my rounds.

 

[monk]

drill rod (round), is available in a truckfull of sizes. a less pricey way to get a large assortment. you can work these to your desire with a bit of fiddling at the sharpener.

 

[rod]

Kevin,

If you want nice bright results on say, silver, with a round, take drill blanks of HHS, even carbide if you want, and fashion a bullet nose, actually sword tip point, on the end, that is a needle point sharp bullet.... best done with 3/32 stock held in your 0-20,000 rpm handpiece and spinning while forming against your revolving diamond lap plates. Go all the way to mirror finish, and I mean mirror.

Get some diamond lapping paste and load a polishing cloth wheel with it. Again revolving the blank in your handpiece buff polish it to a mirror.

Now mount it on your sharpening fixture and grind the front face to about a standard 45-40 degree face. If you make half a dozen of these tools, face grind them to larger and smaller amounts and you will have 6 round gravers of various radii, depending upon how much front face you have ground away.

You may like to cut with them as is, but more heel may be added by diamond paste buffing once the front face has been cut.... polish the underside and it will gradually add more local radius-ed heel. Of course this dulls the edge of the front face, this is restored in a few moments, by regrinding the front face, till your cutting edge is once more crisp but a rounded heel remains.

Such a round will cut well, and at the same time it will burnish the cut by having the polished heel smooth downstream of your cut.

In the interest of full disclosure, a very fine engraving artist generously disclosed that he uses rounds with these sword nosed ends. I had been doing this independently, but I am sure he had decades of a head start over me on this matter ( and many other matters).

best

Rod

 

[Kevin P.]

Thanks Rod
I'll try to absorb all your instructions and attempt to fashion these gravers.
I have the stock and with my lapidary tools I should be good to go.
I'll let you know the results. The 'sword' tip should help me maintain direction of cut.
Mercie & ciao
Kevin

 

[Kevin P.]

Thanks Tira your comments should help me in my cutting.

 

[Kevin P.]

Kevin Scott what is it you like about round gravers for lettering?
Thanks for your comments.
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

what are you trying to achieve?

I don’t think this has anything to do with my question about round gravers.
But since there were so many generous responses I’ll tell you what I’m doing, successfully or no, is another question.

I’m a lapidary/goldsmith/jeweler by profession. I’m hoping to incorporate engraving aspects into my metal work.
I’m engraving a 16 ga., 5 mm wide band in 18KY with some scroll work inspired by Mike Dubber’s cast.
The scroll work is bordered with straight lines on either side. The round graver came to mind as a way to get a bolder line. This band will be incorporated into a ring featuring a boulder opal that I cut.
I try to present work at the art fairs that I’ve been doing that is different, new, at least for me. I’m doing a show in LA in June that I’ve been doing for, I think, nineteen years. So engraving, which I love doing, is something my customers have not seen from me previously.

Again thank all of you who responded. I’ve found all to be helpful.

Kevin P.
www.kevinpatrickkelly.com

 

[Scottyd]

Thanks for the tip Rod!
I needed a smal round graver and sharpening it to a sword point first worked great.
Scott

 

[Kevin Scott]

Kevin Scott what is it you like about round gravers for lettering?Kevin P.

Kevin P., Round gravers are used for what Meek's on page 94 calls "Gothic" letters. It is a modern looking style unlike what the name implies. Block lettering similar to what is used on modern highway signs for legibility and speed of reading.
The advantages of using this style with round gravers are: Less skill and art needed by the graver. Can be done quicker than other styles. Easy to correctly sharpen the graver. Durable graver cutting edge so less sharpening. Can make curved letters like C,D,G, etc in one continuous cut. Makes a deep even cut so engraving wears better.
I am not a big fan of it but sometimes it gives the right look for some things. I see it on watches made after about 1920, becoming common in the 1930's and later. Most of what I see is a bit boring and can be mistaken for pantograph engraving with a rotating cutter.
I have one watch from the 1920s with a inscription done with a round graver and I really like the way it was done. But it is an exception. Will try to post a picture of it.
Kevin Scott

 

[Kevin Scott]

Kevin P., The round graver might be what you want to use for the border since it makes a deep long wearing cut. Personally I do better with a round or flat graver when making long straight cuts. It is much easier for me to keep the line width and depth consistent versus using a square graver. But others don't seem to have that trouble.
Kevin Scott

 

[mitch]

Hi Rod-

I had a couple questions/concerns about making round gravers from bullet tapered round stock.

First- this method unavoidably makes the heel/trailing surface bigger than the cutting face. Within limits, this would create an acceptable/desirable burnishing effect as the larger radius follows the cut, but i'm guessing at some point- particularly on deeper cuts and/or tighter curves- this could become problematic. a very long, gradual bullet taper would minimize this problem, but would also make the heel angle very shallow- taking away some of those advantages. what's your experience with this?

Second- how do you maintain a consistent tool size when every time you sharpen the radius gets bigger? you're essentially creating a conic section when you grind the face and the farther down the (bullet tapered) cone you go, the bigger the face gets. so especially for something like lettering that requires consistent line widths, how do you manage this effect?

thanks-