Recommendations on a powered graver

[kcstott]

I've been looking at the GRS versions GraveMate, Gravermax, System 3, even the lindsay system he's proud of his stuff.
What do you think of the system 3 is it worth it or should I pony up and get a better system??

 

[vilts]

When I asked same question people said that if there is a way you could avoid System 3, then avoid it. Wait a few months, save some more cash and buy a better system. I started with GraverMax SC, had Lindsay Classic with foot pedal and now own PalmControl and they all are more capable than me.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Forget the System 3, a GraverMax SC or, if funds are low, GraverSmith are the way to go nowadays. With either of these units you won't be hampering yourself and they can be upgraded to Airtact if you want to go down that route.

You can forget all the tool wars stuff about which system (GRS or Lindsay) is better. Each is a fine tool but one or other system suits different engravers accordingly. Don't get suckered into the trap that if you buy one particular system it will make you a better engraver, it won't. That comes through hard work and practice and what my father achieves with an old Max would make you drool.

 

[Phil Coggan]

That comes through hard work and practice and what my father achieves with an old Max would make you drool.

To be fair Marcus, Ken could probably do the same work with a rusty nail!

Phil

 

[Marcus Hunt]

To be fair Phil, so could you!

 

[kcstott]

Don't get suckered into the trap that if you buy one particular system it will make you a better engraver, it won't. That comes through hard work and practice and what my father achieves with an old Max would make you drool.

You know I've been trying to tell that to the owner of my old company for a very long time.

Being a Toolmaker I see everyday what skills I've developed over the years, Every time an apprentice steps in the shop, What comes as second nature to me is foreign to them. And I know that no amount of money will compensate for time at the block with tool on steel
And I don't have a problem spending money on a good machine as long as I can justify the cost. But I also don't want to fight a low quality machine either.
Thanks for the advice

 

[KCSteve]

One of the last times this came up it lead to a pretty extensive thread. click here if you want to see what everyone said last time around.

 

[kcstott]

Good Lord that's a long thread
But good info for the most part. I think I've made up my mind
Thanks guys for the help

 

[Diacutter]

oops ment to post this here:

Personally I think the system 3 gets looked past too often. I have had one for two years now and I LOVE MINE! I feel people don't spend the time to learn how to use it properly. It comes with 3 different springs and you can use between 10 and 80lbs of air pressure. Its like getting 3 different hand pieces. There is also and optional heavy piston if you need extra power or a smoother start up. I would recommend you spend more than 2 minutes with it before you decide it is junk. I have used the gravermate, mach ,max meister and if i had it to do again I would still buy the system 3. The other GRS machines are very nice tools and allow you to add the airtach and other hand pieces... but for the average jeweler or beginning engraver the system 3 is a good choice.

PS Thanks for all the help,ideas and encouragement everyone on this forum has given and shared. This is a great place to hang out and learn.

Dave

 

[KCSteve]

Yes it is. That's why it's worth digging it up whenever someone has the same question because I think it's a pretty complete analysis.

 

[Sam]

My advice is to put that money toward a better system than the System 3. If you're on a budget, the new GraverSmith is an excellent choice. Of course the best bet is to try 'em all and see which system suits you best.

 

[moslash]

Of course Lindsay is proud of his stuff! He didn't follow a blueprint to follow in his work like you do in yours. I take it personally when someone knocks a tool they have never used because of its price. Remember when Glocks came out? Steves' tools will stand the test of time as well as the others have. They are all great tools and some real smart people invented them. Play nice!!

 

[CJ Allan]

Well....
As this seems to be a question and never ending answer"S"..

I "think" it would all depend on .....
"What you want to do...
&
How serious you are about doing it........"

If one wants to hobby, and learn to engrave periodically.......
I would say get the Magnagraver from Ray Phillips NgraveR Co.
Under $500 bucks...
Don't need a compressor...as it's all electric...
and will do serious work.I STILL use the one I've had for almost 30 years....on almost a DAILY basis..........Highly recomended for beginners to find out if engraving is "really" something ya wanna get into....Remember there's a hell of a learning curve to all this..and having several thousand bucks in tools layin under a bench somewhere ..when ya find out all this don't just fall out of the shy...(like so many seem to do. )

If you are more serious, and considering engraving as a career..........

I have a Gravermax that I've had for almost the same 30 years, and use it almost daily
It works for me...

I now have a Lindsay Artisan with foot pedal "AND" setup for use with a scuba tank...(for on the road demos)... AND "I LOVE IT....!!"

All these systems are workhorses, and believe me.....I work the hell out of them DAILY.....

Whatever one chooses...
Just ask yourself.."What, & How serious.!!

The one major item that everyone seems to over look is....
"A GOOD ENGRAVERS VICE"


Ya can engrave with a sharp nail.....BUT ya need a way to hold things......

I started with a small Vigor..
Made a couple bowling ball vices...
Been useing a GRS Magnablock since they first came out with it.....
and now I'm getting a 50 pound Ray Letourneau vice.......

I would say.....
Get the largest, heavist vice you can.....
Ya can do little pieces in a large vice...
But you don't know stress, till ya try workin on a large piece in a small vice.....!!

The dumbest tool to jump right into is a microscope......
Learn to engrave FIRST...THEN fine tune your work......if ya last that long...

For what it's worth.........
Hope it helps a little.....


.
.

 

[Sam]

The dumbest tool to jump right into is a microscope......
Learn to engrave FIRST...THEN fine tune your work......if ya last that long...

I respectfully disagree with the microscope comment. I see no reason why a beginner shouldn't start with a scope.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Woah Moslash! What rattled your cage? I can't see anything here that's knocking Lindsay, and PLEASE don't jump to conclusions about what tools each of us have tried. KCStott asked what we thought of each system and whether or not he should consider a System 3. Maybe I'm on a different planet but I see nothing on this thread to get upset about.

Among others who contribute to the Cafe, Vilts uses Lindsay and, I believe, so now does Phil Coggan. They have every right to own and use this equipment and indeed make any recommendations they like. I (and many other professional engravers) like and use GRS equipment. But at the end of the day the tools can be GRS, Lindsay, NGraver, hammer and chisel or just plain push graver; it's the work you produce that counts! Now you may happen to like and use Lindsay equipment, and that is your right. Each system works differently and will suit individual engravers according to their need and modus operandi. Both GRS and Lindsay make fantastic tools, they just appeal to different folks.

If someone wants an opinion on bits of kit this forum is great as there is a wealth of different opinions. Unfortunately, the Lindsay forum (even though it's now supposed to be unbiased) can appear to be more of a fan club for Air Graver in all its guises. Try asking about how GRS and Lindsay equipment match up there and you'll be flooded with torrents of how wonderful Lindsay tools are and what rubbish GRS is. In fact I was going back over some old threads and was reading about how someone has both an old GraverMax and Lindsay in his workshop and how that everyone that has ever picked up an Air Graver thinks that it's a much superior tool. It is!!! There, you have it in black and white; an Air Graver is better than an 'old GraverMax'. I would however beg to differ compared to a NEW GraverMax SC or GraverMach as these too are vastly superior to an old Max.

Likewise, there is the old argument that you need every hand piece in the GRS arsenal to do what Lindsay does in one. Depending on what you want to do, the 901 will do virtually everything you would need to do in everyday engraving. I used a Monarch for 5 years for everything bar heavy metal removal and I'm talking full time professional use not hobbyist or enthusiast. I've seen Lindsay tools wrecked through this abuse, and I wrecked my Monarch too.....eventually! Recently I've been testing a prototype aluminium Magnum with a shortened barrel and new piston and boy, bar real fine bulino which I hand push anyway, it can do virtually anything and with a huge power range.

There are plus' and minus' for both systems but what I will say is do not always take what you read on the Lindsay forum as gospel. If you look there, there is a thread started by my good friend Barry LH showing some English small scroll he'd cut with the Lindsay Palm Control and very nice it is too except it's not cut as the English would cut it with traditional tools (and, by the way is possible with GRS Airtact. Either system will work on the 'traditional cut' if you use foot control). I posted a reply to Barry telling him how nice it was and, somewhat tongue in cheek, pulling his leg over 'scooped' rather than 'popped' cuts and he agreed with me. However, down came the zealots saying how Palm control can pop cuts in the traditional manner (even though I've yet to see evidence to the contrary and I'll be the first to take it back when I do), and lo and behold an essay appears about traditional grinds of graver 'popping' cuts and how they did it in the past and, get this, my posting was removed! Yes, edited out!!! So much for free speech eh?

In the Cafe we can freely talk over anything we like and yes, even have the odd heated discussion so long as things don't get personal or nasty. We are free to stand by our tools or even say what we dislike about them. What we don't want is the old 'tool war' scenarios of 'mines better than yours'. They are only tools for Pete's sake! I've never seen anybody get steamed up over what brand of toothpaste they use and why you should use brand X over brand Y, so why our tools?????? Surely, at the end of the day, it's about results? Whatever tool is used is up to the individual engraver.

 

[fegarex]

I would agree with Sam on the microscope as well. Those engravers that are card carrying AARP members will find the microscope a great asset as far as seeing. Of course, it all depends on what you are engraving and how well you can see. For a beginning 20 year old engraver, the need for a microscope is not as nearly as critical as it is for a 55 year old intermediate. Cost is a factor as well. I guess I would place the microscope last on the tool list but would still consider it for knife, jewelry or firearms engraving. I've found that most students I have in classes find the microscope a great assest. Many of them had engraved a bit before but struggled with the fine stuff until they used a microscope. There are also a few that don't like it or need it as well. If I could get away without using one I sure would but life is so much better with it for these old eyes. Perhaps I should have listened to my mother when she said I would go blind doing that.......

 

[Sam]

I started using a scope when I was in late 20's and had perfect vision. Lynton McKenzie insisted that I use his when he was teaching me at New Orleans Arms Co. in 1982. The first day I hated it. The second day I started to get the hang of it. The third day I ordered one for myself, and have used one every day since then. I'm a firm believer in micrscopes for every engraver, regardless of how advanced they are.

I should also add that using a microscope is BETTER for your eyes than using no magnification or using a headset magnifier (Optivisor, etc). When using a microscope the eyes are focused to infinity, which means no eye muscle fatigue that causes headaches.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

I think this would make one heckuva film by Quentin Tarantino.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Yeah the bad guys wear Optivisors and carry Plain Jane guns.the good guys have microscopes mounted on their heads and carry only the finest engraved guns on the face of the earth with accuracy capabilities far beyond the skills of mortal man.

I personally use both. I like the optivisor for most of my layout work and use the microscope for shading. For my Game scenes I usually prefer the optivisor as I can see the whole image in its entirety better. Then I might zero in with the microscope for fine details and touching up. Curiously enough, while I am near sighted and have been for a gazillion years, I do have perfect reading vision even at my age. This does make a difference in how I see my engraving while I work and I don't feel any noticable eye fatigue between the two.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

The other thing about a microscope is that it improves posture and is better for your physiological well being. As one who has suffered from neck problems in recent years I wish to hell I'd started using a scope decades ago. It would have saved a lot of pain and suffering.