Plagiarism

[Brian Hochstrat]

Well they attempted to copy me anyway, some of the design is not a copy but the main scroll design on the front bolster of the bottom knife is a blatant copy of the original I did this spring for Tom Overeyender. Pretty funny.

A knife I did this spring

A knife I saw this morning on facebook

Enlarged view

 

[mrthe]

Very nice Brian!

 

[bram ramon]

Shame on you Christian Silva!! This is sic on the other hand it shows customers love your design.. On the other hand the engraving christian did is absolutely not as good as yours! So we still can see the difference between a master and an amateur..
The absolute master engraver you should be grateful for is Firmo Fracassi who is the inventor of this style.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Fracassi, did not invent art nouveau. But yes the style of scroll I used on this knife is based on Fracassi's enterpretation of it, just as my arabesque scroll is based on Alfanos scroll style. Basing a design on a style is not quite the same as the situation we have here.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

So we have to have a whine and cheese party for guy who believes he is too good to get knocked off? ..... and you called me paranoid? Get over it. LMAO.

 

[FANCYGUN]

Welcome to the club Brian.
On one hand it is flattering but on the other a poor unoriginal rip off really ticks you aff.

and YES CHRIS you are paranoid which is why we luvya....

 

[bigransom]

Legally, Brian, it is considered a Derivitive work based on your original work on the top knife. Your original work, is actually original since you drew and executed the work. Basing your work on a style does not make it derivitive, therefore, you hold the copyright to your original work from the knife.

This derivitive work based on your copyrighted work is itself a copyright infringement of your original knife.

It's a shame that there are artists who are so untalented that they stoop to actually copying, in whole or in part, other artists work; when for the asking they likely could get help and encouragement from the original artist. It's also a stupid move if he's trying to build clientele.

The most effective way to handle this is to have your attorney draft a "Cease and Desist" letter to him on your behalf.

This is recommended for two reasons:
1) Copyrights are only in effect and allowed to remain unpenatrable as long as the artist makes a diligent effort to protect his work from copy and dilution; including derivitive works. Now that you've exposed the copy and you know who the violator is, you must defend your copyright with this least of efforts to alert him to your copyright in the design.
2) It is a good indicator to other artists, and good for your reputation and collector base, to protect your work and their investment. It will help you in all ways to further your work and career. It is also a fairly inexpensive action that can be stepped up, if necessary.

You have the right to demand all work in progress (all knifes completed in stock, all work being completed, and any piece, component, or part of the work that is derivitive of your original copyrighted work). In addition, you could (not a first step, but should be in the letter) contact any known customers, collectors, vendors, or retailers and confiscate any works that are in violation - which would likely shut him down, ruin his reputation, and possibly put him out of business.

I'm not vengeful, and I don't recommend that course - however - warning this artist that you will not tolerate these violations, having him send any work in progress to you for destruction, with a stern warning that any future violation and you will contact and confiscate from his customer and client base, will likely keep this guy to his own poor artwork.

These are just notes FYI, and are IMO, so please take them in that vein. This is not legal advice.

Your work is beautiful, Brian. Protect your investment in it and allow this artist to go back to his own pencil.

I wish you well.
scottd.

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Chris I knew, I'd get a "told you so" from you. LOL But our last conversation was the motive for posting this up and I was hoping you would weigh in on this. So yes, lets not make this into a "poor me" or "he's so bad", thing, I think the whole thing is pretty funny and it really has no effect on me. I posted it up to illustrate the point I was trying to convey in our last conversation on this subject, you know, how the copy would be poorly done and devalue the knife and so on.

 

[Crazy Horse]

"The most effective way to handle this is to have your attorney draft a "Cease and Desist" letter to him on your behalf. "

That's an interesting idea. How much would an attorney charge to do that?

 

[Brian Marshall]

Write your own letter first. Have it notarized and send it registered. Keep copies. Save some time and lots of money.

Follow up with the lawyer if it's actually necessary. It ain't cheap.

I know from several rather expensive experiences...



Brian

 

[bigransom]

$200 - $600; depending on firm rates.

 

[bram ramon]

Fracassi, did not invent art nouveau. But yes the style of scroll I used on this knife is based on Fracassi's enterpretation of it, just as my arabesque scroll is based on Alfanos scroll style. Basing a design on a style is not quite the same as the situation we have here.

You are absolutely right. You are a super artist you don't copy you have certain styles you love and bases on these to draw your one. I think we all do. When i see your engraving i can say i'm a fan! I can see you can draw! What we see here is a pure copy, ore this person isn't capable to draw his one design ore he doesn't give a sh*t.. Anyway it is sic!

 

[bigransom]

Write your own letter first. Have it notarized and send it registered. Save some time and money.

Follow up with the lawyer if it's actually necessary. It ain't cheap.

I know from several rather expensive experiences...



Brian

Unless you sell your work at a very low level, unfortunetely, I'll have to disagree. This is a very ineffective method to save a few bucks. It also tells the artist who is violating that you are not serious. If your work isn't worth $500, then just let it go. An amateur letter is about the poorest representation of your work that you can do - again - IMO.

If you are an artist - make art. Let the attorneys do the legal work.
scottd.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Scott,


You have every right to disagree based on YOUR experience. (perhaps you have more disposable cash than I do) My post is about MY experience.

The items of mine that were copied where I involved an attorney cost me over $3,000 each time.

Different items. Letters back and forth, depositions. Lots of time wasted.

I got NOTHING in return - other than a souvenir photo of the items that had been copied - you cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip.

These guys had no money - and supposedly sold to buyers outside of the US. They've long since dropped out of the business.

There is a certain level at which I would go for an attorney again but there has to be very good reason to expect something for the money.

The pieces were in the $10,000 to $15,000 range. All I suceeded in doing was giving away $6,000 of that total.



For two recent instances I did as I recommended earlier. Wrote the letter myself with proof of receipt. The pieces were worth a bit less.

I got replies - an outright apology from one who later became a student and the other promised not to do it again. (I monitor his website and what's for sale in his booth)

That served my purpose and cost me around $60.



Brian

 

[Barry Lee Hands]

Chris, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean "they" are not out to get you, hehe.
As I recall, one story is that Fracassi got his Art Nouveau style from the ornament on a house he rented,or passed by, at least that is what Monte Mandarino told me. Monte even had gone to the house and taken some pics.

 

[Eugene Carkoski]

Copyrights

Most things in life are just a Meunipulation of memories. Whether you saw it in an old book on the wall of the church or search on the Internet. You can make changes to it to fit your own needs, and you can claim it's yours but is it really. Don't make mountains out of molehills.

 

[bigransom]

I wasn't targeting you, Brian. Sorry if it sounded that way. Not at all.

Simply, an artist/engraver/whatever, writing a legal letter is usually fool-hardy, if not actually foolish. The whole discussion was simply info about protecting your name/brand/company and work. Not about you and I. We all have our own situations.

I'm glad yours worked out well and saved you some money. Another artist reading this, without the same background and experience, may just dig themselves a hole. And that can be costly in many ways.

So, my comments are general. Take them for what they are worth. BUT, no matter where you are now, starting out protecting your brand/name/image and work is good policy. And yes, it can cost real money. Sometimes $6000. How much is your work and brand worth? Brian, you got something for your money - it just wasn't green. In these cases, it rarely is.

Carry on with the debate! Back to the studio for me... (the big smiley requested above - lol)
scottd.

 

[GTJC460]

How does copyrighting actually work? Do you have to actually register the work somewhere or do you just claim it?

 

[bigransom]

You can make changes to it to fit your own needs, and you can claim it's yours...

OK, last one on exit...

No, you can't! That's what this conversation is about. You CANNOT make changes to it for your own needs (that's copyright violation, almost exclusively today); and you CANNOT claim it is yours!

Sorry to be so pointed, but really? Coming from an artist, or even someone on an artist related forum.

Very disappointing...
scottd.

Eugene: I am sorry, Sir. Attacking you is no solution to helping spread info about copyrights and what is OK, or not. My apologies, Sir. I am embarassed at my own outburst. I come from a publishing and art background and copyright is a big part of that. I'll try to put out some info later tonight. sd.

 

[bigransom]

How does copyrighting actually work? Do you have to actually register the work somewhere or do you just claim it?

GT, I will put in a response later this evening with info and some basics - along with links - about copyright "rights", what it means to those who want more info, and how it works.
scottd.