On Pricing Your Work.

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Tim

I personally would be a little cautious with that one. Speed is a relative thing I know, but it is a double edge sword. Naturally time, practice and confidence will bring about a speed and efficiency increase but it reaches the stage where you find your own limit to how fast you can go.

In your example (i realise it's purley hyperthetical) my best advise would be to stop doing the work at that price and look for more lucrative work ............or educate your customers to pay more. Let the half price engraver do that kind of job and work themselves into an early paupers grave.

The opposition is part of the market..........Never base your prices on the opposition. .......For all you know the opposition may be as poor as dirt and overworked but they will never tell you that. Only you know what it is that you want in life and what finacial reward you need to gain that. Your opposition will always bring you down to their level............ And there is nothing wrong with you trying to bring them up to your level.

The market will always try to beat your prices down............and they will go down, if you let them. For instance, when was the last time that you told a customer how much a job will cost and they replied that you are too cheap and they are going to pay you more?? When was the last time that a customer sucked in their lips and told you there was a recession happening and could you sharpen your pencil because someone else will do it cheaper???.........that is the market at work!!!

I realise that estimating your time is always a bit of a crap shoot, particulary in such a labour intensive industry. Sometimes you get it right and other times fail miserabley. The cutting time is where you earn your money................but factored into that time must be all the non productive hours you spend trying to get to the work bench. Most people forget that a $50 job has cost them half an hour of time talking to the client about what they want.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Dave London]

Arnaud
Your English is excellent ,better than I can do in another language:thumbs up: dave

 

[Ron Smith]

"if it sells, it sells".

Chris, that is very important to know because as your reputation grows, it (masterpiece in the closet) will always increase in value, and might even approach the value that you put into it.. Having to sell it right away creates problems. That piece is always worth while for advertising as you show your work around i.e. "this is what I can do if I can get paid for it". (some will jump on it, some won't) On the other hand this is what I do normally. One is bread and butter. The other is "soul" engraving if you know what I mean, and much more expensive. That is why diversity is important and approaching it from both angles.

The customer will usually choose what he can afford, so working to change your client base is a constant, necessary. challenge. For instance, the public doesn't have a clue, and the collectors want a name attached to their "investment". The rest of them either love engraving, or hope they have stumbled onto something.

I have always said you will make more money on the little jobs, not to mention the stress in trying to do one masterpiece after the other..Burn out, burn out, burn out. Age might have something to do with that too.

I had a real hard time breaking into the big money clients. They always seem to already have their minds made up on who to buy from. They aren't stupid, or maybe they are, and if you have an ability that will show you the brightest up comers before they become famous, this is definitely a rare quality.

So, you have to just slog along, gaining business sense along with perfecting your skills in hopes that some day you will be recognized. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, and if you are, count yourself lucky. Sometimes it is just who you know.........so get to know everybody.

Get out there! You never know who will come along to help you along.

It is a funny game, but it has rules. They are persistence, determination, passion, and like Sam A. said. When the ego gets in the way, it will probably dry up for you.

These are the balls you must juggle all through your career, but personally I think loving the art more than you love yourself is the real rip in the fabric of all of these calculations. Did you ever know an artist that got anything close to what he was worth? It (art) is a luxury you know.

After all, generations later might see it, but it is not likely that this generation will, but getting other things going (mass production ideas) will help you pay for your passion.

My happiness was just getting to so something I loved and getting paid for it. How many people you know gets to do that? I wouldn't trade my life for anyone I can think of. I'm poor, but I'm happy or really, I am grateful. That is a pretty rare attitude these days in my observation.

And that is my other two cents on the subject.

Ron S

 

[Kevin P.]

Chris I feel like a kindred spirit in lots of ways. You're what someone calls an inner directed person; you're setting your own standards.

"I either need to expand my marketing efforts or move out of the land of biscuits and gravy to where the money is."
There's another way. If you like where you live go visit the money. I love where I live and when I do business I go to the wealthiest counties in the US. I bring it to them. I don't know how the firearms market works. I know there are knife shows and it seems from what I've seen of your posts you do a variety of things.
I started out doing street fairs in Ca getting up at four in the morning to go set up and sell. I eventually found out that there were promoters doing indoor shows in places across the country. It changed everything. I did these shows and spent a lot of years educating my audience. I was doing jewelry that nobody else was doing. People liked it but didn't know if it was worth the money 'cause they didn't see anything like it in jewelry stores. I was doing OK and the more times I did these shows the better my sales. If you're doing good work there's no one who can sell it better than you. People want to buy from the artist.

As for: "Work on the masterpieces if you got time, and expect to lose on them until your name becomes a houshold word. LoL" I have great respect for Ron S. I note everything he says but I disagree with this statement. But then maybe he's talking about the guy in Wales.
I wasn't a household name and still don't think I am but people buy my work and some is 'high end' stuff. Each year I assess what Im going to do for the next season. I always do a few things that are over the top; they always sell.
I feel very strongly that if the maker believes he's doing good work a particular piece is waiting for a particular person. I did a show a number of years back in MI and every piece I sold was at least four years old and it was one of my better shows. This was before GM and others tanked.

As i said in another posts these things are on my mind 'cause I'm off to do my first show in a number of months. It worked last time in June but you never know if the magic is still there. A little anxiety is a good thing; it keeps us on our toes.

I logged on this time to open a new thread which is where I'm going, with the question after pricing our work where do we market our work?
I believe my best work is ahead of me.
Kevin P.

 

[Kevin P.]

I tried to post this as a new thread but wasn't allowed to .

The thread on pricing your work is very interesting. Lots of good provocative posts.
But . . . your work isn't worth anything until it sells. Harsh, I know but true.

So the question for those who earn a living doing this where do you sell? If you're doing it as a hobby or as an amateur it doesn't count.
Kevin P.

 

[Mike Cirelli]

There sure is a lot of good information here.

A time clock as mentioned is a great tool especially for western, vine, lettering and such. It can be very useful for inlay. With the price of gold now days you have to be very accurate estimating gold. You can get very accurate results by cutting 1 or 2 square inches. Don't forget layout time that can take as long as cutting. I get so many interruptions during the day that a time clock is the easiest way for me to time in and out. When shipping I usually charge an extra 5 or 10 bucks for handling.

I don't think it's necessary to tell the customer your hourly rate, the customer is not really interested in that. The customer is interested in how much the finish product is going to cost. When they squawk about price, I usually explain to them step by step what truly is involved in doing what they want done. Most customers don't have a clue what's involved, they never engraved or made a piece of jewelry and most likely never will. If any corners where to be cut the finished product would have lesser quality results. 9 times out of 10 they're happy to pay what you need them to pay.

If you go to a restaurant and order a spaghetti dinner you get .50cents worth of salad about .50cents worth of spaghetti a scoop of sauce another .25cents and a cup of coffee another .25cents viola $8.95 plus a $1.50 tip "total" $10.45. Does anyone ask any questions, no they just eat, enjoy and pay the bill. And most people can cook.

You do have to stay with what your market will except. But if you do your homework, work hard and give the customer good quality work you can expect a fare wage. You shouldn't except anything less. If you are always ending up making 5 or 10 bucks an hour that's okay if that's all your work is worth. But your not going to make a very good living. If you put out high quality work at that price someone is probably making some serious coin off your work. That not only hurts you, that also devalues the trade as a whole.

Marketing your product is a whole different animal. It isn't easy. That's why big corps pay big bucks for that. The biggest part of marketing is the customer must feel happy with their purchase all prices aside. They usually forget what they paid but will never forget the quality.


Sorry for rambling.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Rick, I figured you would enjoy that link I sent you ... or cringe

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KevinP, it's definitely different for the gun/knife market. I bought a bunch of canvases hoping to reap the rewards. I've learned my lesson the hard way so all that I buy now are Colts and old Winchesters ... they now sit collecting dust waiting for the stock makers etc. etc. who have a name that can add value. Everything has to be right, including your own work. I've realized that includes the right time. In reference to my first post ... everything is in a name and no matter how much my work has progressed, value (either actual or percieved) may very well not be realized.

I have to disagree about something not having value until it sells. Everyone who creates something by hand, that truly loves his work, pours a piece of himself into a project worthy of signing his name to. If you look hard enough, it can tell you a lot about someone. It is a window into his soul. That is the passion that creates "value".

Great advice on marketing ... technically, location has little to with it if approached correctly. I knew that when I moved here. I just figured there would be some longevity and a greater need in the local market.

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Hi Ron,

Soul engraving is necessary, there's no doubt about that. It's the fulfillment that bread and butter alone can not satisfy. I've approached that with the "masterpiece in the closet" (or in the garage) and for now it maintains its' place as the "hobby" or spare-time side of the business. It does eventually pay off in helping to sell more work ... luckily too, otherwise I'd have a lot of overly ornate work, invested on lousy canvas, rusting. Heck ... I've got that now too!!

Burnout is very real and it doesn't discriminate. I was there in my last career and because of it I teeter on it now. The effects can last for years and can take on many new faces like depression. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

"It is a funny game, but it has rules. They are persistence, determination, passion, and like Sam A. said. When the ego gets in the way, it will probably dry up for you."

I'm not known enough to have experienced work drying up. The economy is actually doing that for me. I have let ego get away from me at times. I do believe that self confidence and ego can easily be confused - by others as well one's own self. There was a thread on "posting your work" awhile back. When ego tends to overtake self confidence, I think we see things in our work that are not really there and miss the things that constantly need care and improvement. That's where having a good mentor becomes important. A good dose of reality is like a stock market adjustment. If it doesn't hit regularly, it can become a depression.

Speaking of persistence and determination - I searched for over 8 months for a pair of ebony grips, without any yellow, in the configuration I wanted. I don't think I ever would have found the desire to finish the project if the vision couldn't be realized.

by the way Ron ... my Winchester '73 project is finally in the works. The wood should be done by February and I plan on having it in Reno next year.

 

[Ron Smith]

Chris,
Do you mean this next Reno show coming up, or the one after that?

I am excited about it and will be anxious to see it. I know it will be good.

Look forward to meeting you in person, my friend.

Ron S