Master Class (e.g Grand Masters)

[Marcus Hunt]

Sam, I hope you don't mind me starting this thread regarding Master Classes and GMP in particular. You locked down the other thread before I could say anything (been running around delivering work and getting stuff prepped for the past 2 days) and there were a couple of interesting points which I'd like to add to if you'll allow it. I hope it doesn't get hijacked into the 'tool wars' thing.

Okay, firstly I hope you guys don't think I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs but some folks may not be aware of what a Master Class is and what it entails. Firstly, it 's not a teach-in as such. Everyone who applies to attend a Master Class and this applies to the Grand Masters Program (GMP) too, is selected by the 'Master' to attend his/her class. The people that apply are generally extremely competent in their field. With GMP the class isn't full of 'hack' engravers but experienced people who are specifically seeking to gain knowledge of certain or particular techniques. Perhaps they admire the Master's work and feel that they can quiz him about how he uses a particular method to get a certain result or sometimes they feel just by managing to spend some time with a particular Master is enough to further their insight.

Master Classes have been held in Europe for many years for musicians and artists and I dare say the same applies to the USA. To the engraving field though, it is a new thing. The rub off from Glendo/GRS starting the GMP is this forum. So even the lowliest novice is welcome here and can ask for opinions regarding tools and techniques which, even a few years ago, where hidden in a mysterious void. It is only by the engravers and supporters of engraving who attend the Grand Masters weekends and their willingness to share ideas and techniques that has led to this renaissance. Without the Grand Masters Program as a catalyst I doubt very much that Sam would have put so much effort and expense into this forum. Am I right Sam?

You'll find, if you are lucky enough ever to be invited to join such an event, that what tool is used to achieve a result is very low on the engraver's list of priorities. What generally happens is one engraver might show another something he's been working on and the first thing the observing engraver does is pull out his loupe and look into how the cuts interact with one another. The question as to whether he uses Air Graver or Graver Mach just doesn't arise. The results are what matter and that is what engravers are interested in. Of more interest is what graver was used and maybe geometries rather than what assisted the graver through the steel.

One of the most difficult things to do is mimic what another engraver does tool stroke for tool stroke and this is probably why Mike Dubber was saying that he and Marty where 'trying to keep up and not embarass themselves in front of their peers'. But really, in my opinion, that shouldn't be what it's about. It should be about absorbing knowledge and, hopefully, being able to put that knowledge of a technique to good use in the future.

Learning something new is always a challenge and I found myself in the same boat earlier in the year when I took Todd Daniels' stone setting class. It's totally different to what I normally do and I felt like a real duffer at times I can tell you! But it does one good to go back and be a complete beginner at something; indeed it's a quite humbling experience.

Just one last word on tools if I may. I have to agree with Andrew on this; bolting something onto a tool (be it Airtact or Palm Control) can only be seen as an upgrade if it improves things for a particular engraver. Some guys prefer the foot control, plain and simple so for them making their tools hand controllable isn't an upgrade because it doesn't improve their status quo as they see it. I assumed when I taught my English Scrolls class in June that everyone would be using Airtact as that's what I use. Wrong! The whole class used foot control and only one tried and liked Airtact (and in fact, it improved his work considerably). They liked their foot control because that is what they were used to and didn't see Airtact as an upgrade. Now for me, Airtact was a superb improvement and upgrade to my system because I've always hated the foot pedal. At the end of the day it's different strokes for different folks and remember, one man's meat is another man's poison!

 

[Sam]

I closed the other thread for good reason. I will let this thread continue, but be warned. If this thread takes a turn for the worst I will not hesitate to take drastic action. I'm already up to my neck in unanswered emails from the previous thread that angered so many people. I don't have time for childish nonsense.

Think before you post. If you want drama, go elsewhere.

 

[jlseymour]

Thanks Marcus, You put in the right prospective, The end results is what count and the engraver has the choice of tools be HC, PC, GM, NG...

Jerry

 

[fegarex]

Well put Marcus.

I would like to clarify just who can apply to these. You don’t to be of “master class” to apply for these. I think some people feel intimidated to apply for the classes as they feel they aren’t one of the best engravers out there. That is not the case. No, you can’t be a full fledged beginner but an engraver with intermediate experience may be one of the best candidates for the classes.

Yes, the instructor does select each student but in many cases they may pick a student which they feel has that “potential” to become even better. I’ve talked with many engravers that said they would like to take the class but felt they “weren’t good enough” but in fact would have done very well. The only way to find out is to apply.

The selection process is kept anonymous to the instructor so being “someone” doesn’t have any weight in the selection process. There may be some that excel over others but there also may be some that the instructor feels he can help advance. I’ve talked with many of the Grand Masters and they are quite surprised that people feel so intimidated. They are there to teach what they know and anyone will go away knowing more than they came with.

I’ve had scheduling conflicts or economic issues that haven’t allowed me to attend the classes but I have been to the weekend events and am amazed at the whole thing. I have seen many students from the “big names” to “no names” in these classes and all were loving every minute. The only bad thing for me is I haven’t had the chance to be in one myself!

I guess what I am trying to say is don’t be afraid to apply. Perhaps you may not be accepted but you won’t know unless you try!

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Very well put Rex. You've clarified something that I should have said about the Grand Masters Program. You do not have to be a master engraver to apply or even be accepted. Indeed, I believe certain Grand Masters have even deliberately chosen someone of lesser ability to attend the class because they have believed he/she would gain more from the class than a 'master engraver'.

Thanks Sam for letting this continue. It is not in any way meant to be contentious and you're right, none of us have time for childish nonsense. This is a place to exchange ideas freely and peacefully and anyone that seeks to get their thrills in any other way should look else where.

 

[Fred Bowen]

In 2004 I took a beginners class with Scott Pilkington. I took the beginners class because I really didn't know what my skill level was. I carried a photograph of a Purdey shotgun engraved by Winston Churchill as a reminder of what can be done if the passion to learn is there. Scott mentioned that he had heard of a plan to have Winston do a class in 2005, but didn't have any details.

When the Grand Masters Program was announced I debated whether I should even bother applying for all the usual reasons- not good enough, etc. My wife convinced me that this is the opportunity of a lifetime to learn from an engraver I greatly admired and if I didn't apply I definitely wouldn't be accepted. So I applied, was accepted and my engraving life took a quantum leap into the stratosphere. Because of the Grand Masters I have met some wonderful people that I could not possibly have met any other way. I would encourage anyone who wants to learn from a master they admire to apply regardless of your opinion of the quality of your work or likelyhood of your acceptance. Like the lottery- if you don't buy the ticket, you can't win.

The Program itself has had far-reaching benefits to the engraving world. And I do mean the world. It is one factor in promoting the high level of work that is being done in all types of engraving, not just in North America, but everywhere (and especially New Zealand). Apply for the Grand Masters and become a part of it; it's an experience you will not forget.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Rex, Fred ... Thank-you very much. This thread HAS taken a very good and positive direction. That's the kind of information that folks want to know and need to know.

Linda Shreck asked a while back if I was interested in attending ... I responded with my usual crackpot humor: "Sure, just as soon as I learn to engrave my name". That was the year Ron Smith taught. I don't know if he will ever teach this class again. For me, that's the opportunity of a lifetime and I fear I let it pass me by. I dunno ... I'm far better along than I was 3 three years ago and I believe the information in a class of such magnitude would be more efficiently absorbed and utilized now. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Looking at the photos gives one the impression that this course is a round table of engraving insiders. Given the selection process posted by Rex and hearing Fred's testimonial certainly voids that assumption.

---

Marcus, I'm curious ... what kind of engraver would you classify as a "hack". I don't think you will find too many folks, who aren't serious or passionate, that are willing to shell out that kind of coin for a class.

One other thing ... my previous post was a bit cryptic but I think one thing was clear. I'm here to learn and have fun. This site has kept me in touch with the fantastic work that is currently being produced and has helped to elevate the bar in what I want to achieve. Engraving has come to consume my life and for better. The subliminal sales pitches are beginning to make me gag ... not to mention the cultists who choose to martyr themselves for a stupid tool only to be forgotten in a month. It insults my intelligence (and others I'm sure) and at one point I asked Andrew to remove my account. So far, he's been able to talk me out of it.

Good day gentleman ... and thanks again Rex and Fred. Marcus ... thank-you for taking the initiative to take this discussion in a constructive direction.

Chris

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Fred, wouldn't you also say that one of the fantastic bonus' is that you get to meet all the other engravers who fly in from all over and share and talk engraving for an entire weekend too? Of the couple of times I've attended I have been totally blown away by the free flowing exchange of knowledge. This is something which is without equal anywhere I think.

Chris, strange as it may seem there are some people who have become engravers and see it purely as a job. There is nothing wrong with this as it can fulfill certain decorative requirements at a low price. These guys can work fast, they do not turn out artistic pieces and they are happy to just collect a pay check at the end of the week. Quite often they have reached a certain level and feel no need to improve what they do, all that matters is the money they make. The type of engraver would for example be the type who'd engrave a $20 silver locket that you'd see advertised as 'hand engraved' in the local mall. Not the Alfanos' or DeCamillis' of this world. 'Hack' is a derogatory term and I apologise if I've offended some people. Indeed, 'hack engravers' like everyone else in the world have their place and service a need.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Ahhh yes Marcus. The craftsman vs. the artisan.

The always missing and common denominating factor here is not skill level but passion. There are those that work to live and those that work to live through their work. For some of us, a little of both is the only way to make it until the latter can be fully realized.


Thank-you for explaining ... just keeping ya honest there buddy .

Chris

 

[Tira]

Looking at the photos gives one the impression that this course is a round table of engraving insiders.

Chris, I agree that the event may give that impression to people who have never attended. I attended the 2007 grand masters (both classes) and was a bit worried about "fitting in" myself. By lunchtime on the first day I figured out that the "insiders" were just friends - they were so comfortable with each other. And by lunchtime on Monday - the group included me. Truthfully, people came over to meet me and made me feel at home by the third sip of coffee before class....

I just got home from the GM weekend this year and it was warm and inclusive. There were many "regular" faces at the event as well as some new people to meet. As a result I have even more "engraver" friends. Everyone who attends is a valuable part of the engraving community in his/her own way. The Masters are imparting their knowledge, the students are trying to expand their skills/art and the new engravers are trying to soak it all in. All the parts together make the whole of the engraving community. The exchange of information from one generation to the next is what is making this group so vibrant and alive. Where would we be if the masters wouldn't teach? The same place we would be if there were no students to learn. This exchange of information is the point of the GM event.

 

[Ken Hurst]

I'm not able to attend any of the FEGA meetings (I'm a charter member) or GM events due to a bad back & not being able to travel. However, I consider myself Very fortunate indeed to be able to visit with y'all on this site & read the well thought out (sometimes) opinions of the group. Also, I have learned / relearned many helpful steps along the way. It is surprising just how much you can forget in 50 years of scratching. Even tho I seldom comment or add to a subject in any helpful manner, it is a true joy reading all that is posted. Being home bound, this site (thank you Mr. Sam) helps me feel part of this group and I thank you all for that ! Ken

 

[KCSteve]

Ken

I'd sure like it if you commented more - you guys who've been doing this 'forever' are a precious resource to us newbies.

 

[Fred Bowen]

You bet, Marcus. I bought every book on engraving I could find that had quality photos. It's one thing to admire someone's work in a book, but something else to hang around with the artist in a relaxed, casual atmosphere. Engraving is a solo event and for too long engravers have been isolated from each other. Grand Masters is one way of changing that.

 

[DKanger]

Even tho I seldom comment or add to a subject in any helpful manner, it is a true joy reading all that is posted.

Ken,
Do you ever wonder, or like to see where your work ends up after it leaves you? Just one of those quicky jobs that you snuck in for a little diversion. I built the gun that your engraved lock went on. It set a new national record during the Spring Nationals at Friendship this year and will be used to compete in the 2009 World Long Range matches.

I am building one for myself and one of my main purposes for being here is to study others that I may be able to fully engrave my own when the time comes.

Dave

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Hi Tira,

I'd like to thank you very much for your input. It's always highly valued in my book. I've been playing the "Devil's advocate" here, but not just for my own personal interest. The intimidation factor when deciding to apply is what I am trying to blow a hole through. Who hasn't felt this at one time or another? It appears that my questions/observations have drawn the responses (which I feel comfortable with) that are achieving that.

I feel strongly that this is a good avenue for me. I ask myself constantly which direction I want my work to go so connecting with the artist/master through his work is important. I do hope Ron Smith teaches this course again.

Thank-you again Tira.

Chris

 

[John B.]

Marcus, many thanks for starting this thought provoking post.
It has brought some very good and helpful replies.

Sam, thank you for keeping an eye on things while allowing this and other posts to stay in bounds.
We all benefit from this great resource when respect and consideration is shown.

Rex, great insight. Thank you.

Fred, I think you hit the nail on the head. Great comments and a real understand of what GM and Gm weekend is all about.

Mr. Ken, you have helped so many people and mentored so many now great engraver in your long career.
You owe nothing to the engraving industry and it is our loss that you are not able to travel now.

Tira, as you said so well there is a great exchange of knowledge both inside and outside the classroom.
And no one gives a fig for what type of tools you use and is always willing to transfer their information to suit the tools of your preference.

Chris, go for it. You've got to see the magic of it for yourself.

This whole Grand Masters thing, as others including DJ Glaser have said at the dedecation is about the free exchange of knowledge and information, not tools.
I have been lucky enough to see it in action several times and believe it. I hope you get the opportunity too.

With best wishes and respect to all, John B.

 

[Alain Lovenberg]

I am here in Emporia to teach the art of engraving, not to promote tools!

 

[Ron Smith]

Chris,

Whether you know it or not, you are already a member of the engraving family, and we all welcome you to our family reunions, so don't feel intimidated or anything. Try and see it for what it really is. A place to share with friends your aspirations, and I will guarentee that you would get plenty of support. I certainly can however, understand if you are strapped for cash and it might be a big sacrifice.

If it takes me doing another class to draw you deeper into this group, I will do that. Which class was you refering to?

I am a little limited on what I could teach at this point, as I must see about my eyes. I am afraid I would not be much good at demonstrating fine engraving right now, but I could do some of the more simple stuff (flared cut sculpting) that doesn't require fine eyesight and Pin-point accuracy. I could do a drawing class if that is what you need. The black boards are pretty big.

I think my students have enjoyed the drawing class, and it is a mighty important subject. I have had several comment on taking that class. It might be better to consult the students who have taken my classes. I try to remember what it was like learning to engrave. But I don't know much about teaching and am learning that too.

I can illustrate where you might need strength so you could get the most out of your experience, as I never limit the class to just the subject at hand. I try and help where you have a need and where you are at that moment.

I feel very ineffecient out of my own environment and with strange tools, srtrange bench reuirements, etc., as I am relatively new at using the power tools, but my hands are no longer steady, drawing is difficult for me (except large drawings) because I can't hold a pencil very well, and right now seeing what I am doing is a struggle.

Also, 40 plus years of habit is a hard thing to break at this point, and why should I? It is almost as if I am a student again, having to learn new ways, but those old tools are what brung me to the dance. If I were younger, maybe......... I don't object to learning new stuff however, but maybe others could teach better than me.

GRS has never confined me to using their tools. That has been my choice, and I would have to change so many things in the class room to be able to do it my way anyway. I am self taught and quite unorthodox in my methods, never having an example to go by from the simplest beginings. I had to work it out myself, and didn't even know I was doing it wrong until the guild was formed. But the truth is, the idea is, control of the tools, no matter what the tool is, and no matter how you do it. Being able to engrave with a fish hook and a rock proves my point,........ right Joseph?...........right Joseph?.............. Hey Joseph, wake up!!! Are you there?

Anyway, my offer still stands, and it isn't just about the engraving class. It is the value of the invironment you would be in, and I can't say enough about that. You will pick up more stuff just asking a few questions cause you can't shut us (teachers) up. I would however, do the best I can, and hope I don't embarras myself in the process................HaHaha...........

I think the cat is already out of the bag though, and people already know I am a goofball..................but hey, what the heck!!..........That is just kinda the way our engraving family is.........right guys??

Oh, and by the way, you can't be an "insider" if you stay on the outside......... can you?. So, C'mon, join in if that is what you would like to do.

Ron S

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Ron, I'm so glad you are here ... I have an ear to ear grin right now!!!

First and foremost ... I was unaware of your eyesight. I'm sorry to hear that and pray that all will be well.


I take it you read my crackpot post (with the pencil in it) in the thread that Sam locked down. I gotta tell you that I laughed my butt off when I was writing that. I think quite a few folks didn't understand it or misunderstood it. Many of us in the new generation of engravers are putting way too much emphasis on the tool thing. I started down that road and am glad I caught myself. Almost falling victim to the commercialism and marketing that one tool or the other is some sort of panacea for all our engraving needs. I guess that's my way of protesting that whole thing when that thread degraded the way it did. We buy a bunch of tools, take a class on how to use them, then are left on our own with the artistic and business aspects of making engraving a career. In a way, that part about the pencil was a cryptic plea for help too. Save us from the tool nonsense and give us something we can really use. Since you have mentioned a drawing class ... I believe you understand perfectly.

There's a nutrition/fitness model that uses a three legged stool as an illustration. It applies to certain business models as well and I think it applies to engraving very well. When any leg of the stool is short or "lacking", the stool (or apex) never stands at it's highest possible point. Each leg can represent: 1. Pencil skills, 2. Cutting skills and 3. The business skills.

Just about any college or university will help with all three when undertaking a new career in the commonly accepted paths to success. In engraving, there seems to be such little out there to teach #1 and #3. I've hired tutors for art and drawing but finding an art instructor that can draw complex scroll is very difficult. A series of art classes specifically designed for engravers would be wonderful. I'm not so concerned about the business side as I've got a 4 year degree for that ... but many don't. There's no business model for making a living at engraving. It's trial and error all the while you're hoping your work progresses to the point where you don't have to pound the pavement but folks find you.

I'd love to take a class in acanthus drawing. Not too many folks in my area have even heard of acanthus let alone know how to draw it. So much in engraving is derived from that.

I've got both of your books Ron ... I've worn them out. Getting from one of the "scroll and origination" layouts to the finished drawing on the next page is not as simple as flipping the page. It takes a lot of time and practice....months. I have a love/hate relationship with my 0.3 mechanical pencil and pile of crumpled up paper on the floor next to my desk. It's coming along and my engraving has progressed 10 fold in the last year. It does, however, literally take all day to get something acceptable where it might take a seasoned artist or engraver one hour. I spent the entire day today trying to creatively fill the rectangle shaped bolsters of a custom knife. Interlocking scrolls with gold inlay backbones and leafs. At this point, I have know idea what the final outcome will be as I've just begun to cut but it looks alright on paper.

I would very much like to take you up on your offer. I'd be crazy to let an opportunity to learn from you slip by again. If you have a class schedule, please let me know. As for funding ... yep things are tight but that is changing as I am making this work as a business. I find that this economy is not slowing me up as I thought it would but that's because my work is beginning to draw attention in Charleston. Both in the jewelry store I sell through as well as the custom gun maker I work with. Driving to Texas would be a great experience. Folks ask me how I ended up in West Virginia and I joke with them by telling them I ran out of gas on my way to Texas. By the way ... my Dad became an honorary Texas citizen in the early 70s. The certificate, signed by the governor, is still hanging in his office in Boston. Pretty darn cool. One thing he always loved was that all the cannon faced north and all the doors facing North were chained.

I can't thank you enough Ron!! God bless.

Chris

almost forgot ... the "roundtable of insiders" ... us newer guys see the outstanding work being produced by you guys and I'll let my insecurities get the upper hand. It's like being invited to the White House for dinner. I've got absolutely nothing to wear and my hair is a mess!!!

 

[Andrew Biggs]

There's only one word that I can use to descibe the Grand Masters in Emporia...............Magic!!!

When I was there last year the feeling of comaraderie, friendship, warmth and hospitality was overwhelming. People would huddle around discussing this and that about engraving and swap ideas and techniques. There was plenty of good humour for everyone. It was like visiting old friends and family.

There was a fantastic variety of engraving arts represented and all of it facinating. Gun, jewellery, stone setting, hobo nickles, printing and all sorts of bits and peices. The singing and the music in the evenings was just wonderful and added an extra dimension of beauty to the event.

The Grand Masters, students, guest and hosts were some of the most creative, talented, gentle and inspiring people I've ever met. It was food for the soul and that is ultimatley where our creativity comes from.

Cheers
Andrew