Help, please: Lathe recommendation

[Beathard]

I've decided to purchase a metal lathe to cut bands for inlay on cylinders and barrels. I'm leaning towards the Grizzly 7 X 14. I have several questions:
1) Do I need a bigger or different lathe? If yes, why?
2) One friend is recommending the Smithy Midas 3-IN-1. What would I do "in gun engraving" with a press and mill?
3) What tools and attachments should I get with the lathe?

Thank you in advance for the help.

 

[BKJ]

I have an EMCO Compact 8 that I really like. It is Austrian made, I bought mine used for about a grand.

What's weird is you start out with simple tooling and keep adding as you need it. You will most likely use it to make jigs, holding devices and other odd jobs.

 

[Brian Marshall]

Oldies... South Bend, Logan, Atlas, etc... Much more fun!

No matter what you get you'll spend at least 3 times as much on tooling and measuring instruments...


Brian


Correction: slight underestimation above - should read more like "30 times as much on tooling and measuring instruments"...

 

[dogcatcher]

I have a 1972 model 6x18 Atlas, it will do anything I need to do, but sometimes my wants exceed needs. I also have one of the 7x14, except mine has a different color and name on it. It was my first metal lathe, it is okay, but not heavy enough for some projects I throw at it, so I use the Atlas. If I had known then what I know now I would have spent my money on the Grizzly 10x22 lathe. I have used one, I consider it worth the extra coin, it is not big enough for a real gunsmith lathe, but covers everything I can think I would want to do. Then I would have one lathe instead of 2, and I would only have had to buy tooling for one lathe.

You can always make small stuff on a bigger lathe, but you can't always make bigger stuff on a smaller lathe. Your lathe is only part of the cost, the tooling will eventually cost more than the lathe, today you only need a little tooling, but as you use it, you will need more, and that will lead you to needing other tooling.

 

[SamW]

Ditto Dogcatcher...I have a 6x18 from the mid '60s (Craftsman) and sometimes wish I had a 12x36 but just no space to set it up and the little use it would get would not truly justify the cost (as if that mattered). If you are going to be turning gold bands keep rifle barrel breaches in mind also...something you might need in the future.

 

[Toad]

South Bend

 

[Bob A]

It's a slippery slope.

No matter the size of the lathe, your desire to machine things will quickly exceed the size of your machine tools. It's a natural process, just like when you budget time or money. Grizzly has a pretty good "gun" lathe that I understand can be used to do most gun type things, and it has stood the test of time.

Just as in engraving, it's the operator and not the equipment. That being said, there's no substitute for good equipment. If you are going to buy used review Tubalcain's Youtube video on the purchase of a used lathe. These things are heavy and can be irritating to move and resell. There's alot of talk about "buy American iron", but it takes a ton of work to bring a clapped out machine up to the standards of a decent (cheaper) new machine from any one of a number of machine tool suppliers who all sell the same machine with some differences in quality control. (check out a couple of scraping videos to get an idea what it takes to resurrect an older machine!)

No sense in buying a ton of tools and attachments past what you need to do the job at hand (you know, unless a really good deal comes along for something that you might need in the future! ) Hunting down attachments for older American, German or Swiss iron is difficult, time consuming and pricey. If I were to do it again, I'd buy a machine I didn't have to scour the four corners of the globe to tool up.... well, you know, unless a really sexy Schaublin 70 or Aciera F1 happened my way....

Finally, don't forget: These machines don't come with instructions, things happen fast, and experience, training and know- how definitely count. Sometimes, it's just cheaper to pay the experts to do the job and move on.

Bob's scattered thoughts after going down this road several times.

 

[Ron Spokovich]

Being a Journeyman Machinist and Tool Maker, I might be able to help without being 'encyclopedic'. The previously mentioned lathes can be found, still, in good to excellent condition, and, many parts, but not all, are still available. If you're going to chuck a rifle barrel, with action still attached, probably a lathe with a 1 1/2" spindle bore would be needed. In lieu of that, the smaller swings would do, provided you find a long bed model. . .extra length doesn't hurt. Equipment like mine, a Sheldon 13" Tool Room lathe, at 3,000+ pounds, and a Lagun knee mill, with 10" x 50" table, would be overkill. . .you probably don't have three-phase electric. In your case, you may want to take a trusted and knowledgeable tradesman along with you, if you find something to look at. He should be able to advise you against falling into the muck and mire of a bad purchase, and also advise you as tooling, of which you need little to get started. A lot of nice work has been done on the smaller machines, so don't be afraid of those if in good to excellent condition. There are a lot of good lathes and mills still out there, waiting for a deserving home.

 

[monk]

as a former "smithy owner", i bought this thing they called a bench model milling machine. well, it was a fair drillpress, but as a milling machine-- totally useless for anything serious. i could only guess about their other products. in the milling machine mode,i'd make a roughing pass first to establish a good edge. flipping the piece, i would switch to the "fine feed". you turn the fine adjustment, say .035". you might get it, or-- the quill might just drop down where it wanted to go. i processed many buckle blanks with it. if the blank was off the mark by maybe .029" or so, not a big deal. but serious stuff-- too much uncertainty. ymmv

 

[Haraga.com]

I am with Monk.

 

[BrianPowley]

In my experience, I quickly found that those pistol cylinders are anything but round. Those tool posts aren't very flexible and by the time I had a nice groove cut around a cylinder, one side was WAY too deep-----and I got the best results by turning it by hand!
For me, it's way faster to scribe a line, cut those bands by hand and leave the lathe to making fixtures.
....and some real good advice: DO NOT TRY TO TURN THE CYLINDER ROUND! You'll change the exterior dimensions and the cylinder bolt might not engage properly.
The adage is true---you get what you pay for. Accuracy has a price.
If you're not very experienced with a metal lathe, troubles arrive at the speed of light.
A good lathe is a great investment & I would own a Grizzly too. (Currently own a 9x24 South Bend)

 

[Haraga.com]

Where is a Grizzly lathe manufactured?

 

[fegarex]

The 7X14 would be fine for handguns but wouldn't do you much good for rifle stuff. The throat isn't large enough. As some others have stated, the cylinders and barrels are usually not "round" and when placed on centers it is tough to get an even depth. From time to time I will use the lathe for the lay out but actually cut the grove with a graver.

 

[BrianPowley]

Grizzly's are made where almost everything else is made: The Peoples Republic of China or Taiwan.
http://www.grizzly.com/

 

[don hicks]

A lot of good advice previously given. I have a 13-40 Standard Modern, a Unimat db200 and a Myford ML7 (7" swing and 24" bed. All were purchased used. I have never used the Unimat which also can be set up as a mill. It's cute but would be useless to you. The whole through the headstock would be a very important issue, get one with the biggest whole you can. My Myford won't take a piece larger that 1/2", which means that to face the end of a piece of bar stock that is longer then 3 inches and larger in diameter than .5" requires you to use a fixed steady rest,just more time consuming. Using the Standard Modern, just stick the piece into the head stock with enough out in front of the chuck and part it off, no wasted stock and quick. If you only get one chuck make it a 4 jaw, you can do anything with a four jaw ,just takes a little longer to set up,than a 3 jaw. Nice to have both. The older stuff can be a good deal . Worn bedways can be surface ground and brought back to new condition, headstock bearings can be replaced. Don't be scared off by 3 phase machines, I have been running my Mill and 13-40 on a $250,00 Moly-Phase converter for 20 years now. Larger machines usually can be a better deal if you have the space. Machine shops are looking for new and most hobbyist aren't interested in a machine that weighs 2000lbs. The bedways on the bigger machines are usually induction hardened so will show no or minimal ware. Like the others have said , be prepared to spend a lot of money on tooling or a lot of time making tooling. I spent 10 years making tooling and thousands of dollars to get to the point where I can just set up and do a job when it comes around. I have heard some horror stories about the thread cutting accuracy of some of the off shore machinery. My first lathe was an older 9" South Bend ,had all the bells and whistles, power cross feed ,light , taper attachment ,quick change gear box( an essential in my opinion) etc, but it had flat belt drive which was a pain, kept slipping off in a heavy cut, the bed was worn so getting a cylinder that wasn't tapered was next to impossible. I ended up selling it and got the Standard Modern which has gear drive. The difference between the belt driven Myford and the gear driven Standard Modern is that you are less likely to have your limbs torn off by the belt driven unit if you get caught in that spinning chuck.
To get to your original question, If I lived in the US and money was no problem , I would probably buy a new South Bend, look after it ,use it for 20 years and sell it for what I paid for it. You eliminate any quality concerns.
Best of luck in your search.
Regards
Don

 

[BrianPowley]

FYI-----the "New" South Bend lathes are made by Grizzly----in Taiwan.
Here's the link:
http://www.grizzly.com/search/search?q=south bend&pagesize=96&page=1

 

[silverchip]

I have a 1958 Clausing Atlas , just as old as me!!!!!!!! It is 3-phase and I run all my 3- phase with frequency drives. It runs true and does all I need it to.

 

[Tim Wells]

If all you plan to do is pistol stuff then I'd get a Sherline with the long bed option, they come in two lengths. I did my SAA cylinder bands on this lathe and like many have said, they are rarely round. That can be worked around but at any rate, they are made right here in the good ol' US of A and they're accurate, cost effective, and all the tooling is readily available unlike a unimat.

When I got mine, I almost bought a Unimat because they're good lathes but they're way over priced for what they are and getting tooling will be frustrating and expensive. So I went with the Sherline and have never regretted it and I've used it for about 18 years now.

I have a 12X36 Clausing but for small stuff I use that Sherline mostly out of convenience. Photos to follow...

 

[don hicks]

What is the world coming to? Why doesn't this surprise me? Then I would buy an old South Bend or a Myford Super 7. If China ever declares war , we, meaning the free world , will be in rough shape.
Cheers
Don

FYI-----the "New" South Bend lathes are made by Grizzly----in Taiwan.
Here's the link:
http://www.grizzly.com/search/search?q=south bend&pagesize=96&page=1

 

[Tim Wells]

Here's a shot of the lathe I mentioned. It is the short bed version, you want the long version. On the left is a tool post like the old lantern type that let you change the height of your cutting tool by rocking the crescent spacer.

Next to it is a knurling tool that I use to make punches for watchmaking, guns, thumb screws and such, I like to be able to hang on to them.

The next shot is a closeup of a Colt clone cylinder chucked up with a live center in the tailstock keeping things straight. This is how I cut the bands in it. You can undercut them manually for inlay afterward and you can custom grind a tool for whatever width groove you want.

The reason you want the long bed version is that I ran out of room nearly to be able to use my live center with my barrel chucked up and it's 5.5" I believe. So if I had it to do over, I'd get the long one.

One of the things I like about these is that they are a DC motor converted so you can slow them waaaaaay down with the turn of a knob and still have torque.