iGraver tutorial updated - Rod Cameron shares his thoughts on copying

[thekoabenchgoldsmith]

If you're a beginner you don't have a choice. You WILL copy. That's where you start. A guy named Nick Strausser in Honolulu taught me to engrave. He taught me how to sharpen tools. He taught me to engrave his deisgns. He taught, and still teaches, I think, others the same way. Some continue to engrave the same patterns Nick taught us. I quickly decided I didn't want to have my work thought of as Nick Strausser knock-offs. I modified his designs. Filled things in here, added a petal to a flower or leaf there. Rounded some of his squares and points and squared some of his circles, so to speak.

So if you are starting out, and you are copying Lynton McKenzie's work...good for you! Keep it up! You won't always, though, if you are going to grow in this endeavor. Eventually you will find a job that won't let you. And then you get to grow. And you bust out of the LM chains that bound you.

As to copy right. It is awfully hard to prove copyright infringement in this sort of work. If you are taking an engraved piece and molding it and casting reproductions and then touching it up with a few bright-cuts you might actually be infringing. But if you are taking an image, a fish jumping out of water, for instance, and engraving that image into a gunstock or even into a plate to then use as a printing you will likely be on safe grounds as fish jump out of water all over the place and who is to say what the source of your image is? Even if you are using xerox copies and transfering them, you are likely NOT going to infringe. It is not easy to be so faithful that you don't broach the 10 or fifteen percent threshold that allows you to claim a new image. And if you have the skills to be that faithful, why, for heavens sake, would you want to???

My point is...copying will take care of itself. The beginner, like me, well...we copy because we don't know no better way to start out. But our copies are a far cry from the original. If my copy of a Lynton McKenzie design, and I have done a few for fun, could ever be confused with a Lynton McKenzie design then I wouldn't be spending my time copying Lynton McKenzie designs.

The only time it might pay to copy and keep on copying is if you are counterfeighting (sp?) money. And that doesn't pay for long.

Copy On, Garth!

Aloha All,
reb

 

[thekoabenchgoldsmith]

Just a short addition...Some famous novelist or columnist, name escapes me now but it was someone you see frequently, I am thinking Michael Crichton, but I could be wrong, wrote on a new trend in copyright. The claim to copyright ownership of concepts. Like, for instance, I could claim a copyright for the concept of bulletin board postings on conceptual copyrights. It is hard to imagine that such a broad view will ever be adopted by either copyright law or by the courts. But the impact is obvious. In such a scenario an artist could claim copyright to scenes of fish jumping from streams. And then broaden that concept to include streams that open into ponds. And ponds shaded by a leafy tree. And on and on. All one needs is an attorney to write up the documents. And of course the dollars to pay the attorney. I hope engraving won't go this route.

reb

 

[chris]

copying

lynton produced three videos
helped so many people become engravers who would never have he opened up all aspects to it before that i think engraving tecniques were a trade secret
he as the teacher would have known as preavasly said copy the masters work i think its a bit like haveing something new first its platnum then gold then silver then brass then you branch out on your own even a gold border around a gun is a form of copying the thicknes of the inlay the way you under cut it the way you cut back ground or dot punch it he said in his video ken hunt and he studied the background of a early piece said it was loverly and used it constantly in his work i think when something is new you tend to take care of it better i think most here would be a little upset to see some one copying there scrolls to the tee
we all start somewhere normaly at the bottom copying is a good foundation thats all even graver sharpening lyndsay has a pattern on it we all try every thing out to improve our work lynton stated he looked at florid victorian ornament not to faifuly copy karls leaves but ideas i think if you dont learn to draw you will allways be a tracer or direct copyer with more people come more copys thats life
copying is helpful in rons book on scrolls we copy and learn the ropes we hope
thanks ron
but being engravers we should never do fruagalant work for any one what ever the price chris

 

[Ron Smith]

I personally think that one should teach foundation, not style. Of course those learning by watching or studying others work have a tendency to duplicate what they see. Foundation is also what one should be learning. I teach this method in my book, but I remind my readers to study all of the masters. The tendency to copy verbatum is usually what happens. I never had any desire to copy, but had to learn the traditional styles to be able to understand the foundation of good work. I don't think copying can be avoided in the begining. It also isn't likely that one will develope his own style without doing this preliminary practice because good work has certain requirements. There is a point however, when one "grows up" and decides to use that acquired knowledge to step away from habit or the teacher to explore, and because of a good foundation can do that. I personally don't feel I was able to be creative until I had enough knowledge that it had become a part of me. It is after that, when creativity seemed to come naturally. It does dissapoint me however, to see one with talent not explore his own potential, but rather rest on someone elses reputation. Human nature is a funny thing, and I guess if it were not for that we would all progress faster than we do, but commitment is as much a part of becoming a unique engraver than anything, particularly the creative artist. It tends to be relative to a lot of other things also. Financial requirements, impatience, lack of experience, faith in ones self, and what you believe your potential to be. Whether it is ethical or not, whether it is fair or not, whether it is right or not is a valid argument for not doing it, but the minds of anyone testing it would be changed quickly if they are hauled into court only to lose the battle. Pain is a very good teacher, and that maybe is exactly the point. If you are willing to risk that, then you might have to learn the hard way, but if pain changes your mind, then maybe it was wrong in the first place. Truth will usually reveal itself through honest, personal anylization, consideration, and the golden rule, or the alternative is usually pain. One or the other, and if you wouldn't like someone dong that to you, then that would be fair and just reasoning would it not? I would rather learn by careful consideration by choice rather than by pain. I think the other way is careless and irresponsible. Good choices usually bring order and stability. Bad ones usually bring chaos and insecurity and you end up being the victim of your own bad judgment. All of your movements after that will be to avoid those things from catching up to you. In the long run, it might be more benificial to step out of your comfort zones as soon as you can, because there are usually underlying motives driving it, such as laziness, money, ego, or insecurity. Rarely is it just love alone that motivates anyone. Your self esteem is relative to these things and what people think of you. There is criteria for respect just as there is criteria for good design. If you don't meet that criteria, you get a certain reaction in your relationships and from your peers, and you degrade yourself in the process. My attitude would be to give you something to start. The dissapointment would come only when you didn't take that opportunity to add your own uniqueness to it. As John B. said previously, a teacher is proud to see his student rise above him, because it means that he gave him the right things to become his own identy based on a solid foundation. A parent would be just as proud of his child. A good teacher doesn't try to interfere with the creative process. He only guides for a while till the student can take the wheel.

As for the quote earlier " a student is not greater than his teacher", I think Jesus was talking about the creative process, not the result. A man goes out on a limb to be original and pays the big price of discovery. The student knows nothing of that. The "copier" knows not the value of the spiritual growth that comes with that process. The inventor struggles with theory and trial and error until he is finally successful, and then gives it away for the benifit of man. Jesus was trying to tell us that the commitment to reach beyond what we are, into our own potential is an honorable principal. It wasn't about the work, the student, or the teacher. It was about a higher princial. The master makes the sacrifices to go beyond, and then gives it to the student with love. Then Jesus said go and love others as I have loved you. The student is taking, the teacher is giving, and that is why you cannot be greater than your teacher. But if I give to you what I have, then why would I be angry if you use it, but then I might be dissapointed only if I didn't tell you to spread your wings and fly. Don't hold onto me.Take what I give you and bring me honor back, ........................and I think that is what John B was trying to say...............................He was correct.........Ron S

That was what Jesus was trying to say also.....................Is that not proof that you had a great teacher?

 

[Brian Hochstrat]

Ron I agree with what you are saying a 100%. One thing I would like to add is that although a student must build upon what they were taught and create there own look and one day surpass their teacher, it is good to see some things in their work that came from their teachers. For example, Sam studied with Lynton for a short time, and you can still see things in Sams work that came from Lynton, just as I studied with Sam and it is evident in my work. It creates a geneology of engraving and that is important to maintain, so the art will continue to grow and evolve. It also insures that the forefathers of engraving are'nt forgotten.

Now as for surpassing the teacher, Sam is'nt making it easy, every time I think I am gaining ground on him, he does something like micro script and lengthens the distance. I guess I will have to be patient, he is bound to get old someday. Brian

 

[KatherinePlumer]

copyrights and image use

Hi everyone. I'm just a newbie who's been lurking around here for a while (wanting to learn scrimshaw), but I wanted to add a few comments because a lot of these things are the same issues that happen in the "art world."

A concept or an idea cannot be copyrighted, only an actual art piece (or manuscript or photo or whatever). So I cannot claim copyright to the concept of drawing roosters on fence posts in colored pencil, but I can register each individual drawing that I create, for example. Doesn't stop anyone else from drawing roosters on fence posts, just from copying mine!

I do agree that everyone starts somewhere, and that's often by copying the work of someone else. If a person is just learning and making practice stuff, that doesn't really concern me (I'm talking more about figurative work here rather than scrolls, I know nothing about scrolls). After all, you can learn a lot by studying how other artists do what they do. But the moment a person crosses that line from learning to actually creating, and is at the point of showing work and selling work, he or she had better be really careful not to do that anymore. I have seen a lot of artists' work knocked off and produced in other media. Coming from the horse art world, I've seen some very nice horse scrim pieces I recognized straight off as a copy of so and so's famous paintings. Don't do it!

There is a wealth of reference photographs out there for use, if you don't happen to have your own photos of a particular subject (I do encourage people to take lots of photos, you never know when you might need it!) A lot of people don't know about these:

FREE images, royalty-free, copyright-free, free free free:
http://www.wetcanvas.com (free membership needed to access reference library)
http://www.morguefile.com

Royalty-free stock photos, licensing fee required:
http://www.istockphoto.com
http://www.corbis.com

There are probably a lot more...

Anyway, my $0.02 on the subject. I'll crawl back under my rock now.

Katherine

 

[John B.]

Hi Ron and Brian.
Thank you for your thoughts.
I agree with you in regard to teachers and students.
Both of you are artistically gifted engravers and fine and thoughtful teachers.
The teaching of engraving falls into two broad fields, technique and art, as you know.
A teacher can only flip the switch of technique, not create the light of art.
The switch is the technique of using the tools.
And hopefully an additional appreciation of grace, line and form.
The light is the art that we seek to stimulate, but can not create within the student.
I believe most good teachers hope to find students to carry their ability to a higher level.
Even beyond the skill of their mentor.
When we flip the switch and see the bright light of a students creative artistic ability shine beyond our expectations we have our reward.
Brian, I expect both Sam and Diane are "over the moon" to see your wonderful talent.
And Ron, you just keep on nudging us all in the right direction. Thank you.

Sorry Rod, we have strayed a long way from your well reasoned thoughts on copying.
Forgive me, John B.

 

[Tom Curran]

I think this is a very interesting thread.

I have always felt that copying is a highly useful tool for learning, whether it be engraving, drawing, carving etc.

use copying to get on your feet with technique and materials. The whole time you are copying your own style will develop. Eventually you no longer need to copy, but are producing your own work.

How can you draw like Rembrandt without studying his work? To really step into his shoes, try copying one of his drawings.

Copying is useful from a historical standpoint. To learn the style of a certain period, one must copy to some extent until one gets just the right 'feel'.

But copying someone else's work with no adaptation is akin to plagerism.\

Tom