iGraver tutorial updated - Rod Cameron shares his thoughts on copying

[Tim Wells]

Aside from doing a gun like a Henry rifle in the old factory style whether it be Ulrich, Young or whomever to get that period look on a period piece, I liken this discussion to music.

When a person is trying to learn an instrument in a particular style you naturally copy the licks of your musical heroes that made you want to play in the first place, we all do it or did it.

This is a great learning approach but there will come a time when you must branch out on your own and establish your own musical identity and quit copping Tony Rice licks. Engraving is no different.

There is the occasion where a customer will want a factory pattern or Nimschke scroll on a 73 Winchester and it would be remis not to oblige them since they pay the light bill. As long as no ones (originator) livelihood or honor is besmirched then I see no harm in doing justice to one of the old masters of the time. Just don't engrave L.D.N.in a frame as a signature or something.

 

[Glenn]

Heh Bill,
Who's the young guy with the bambi. Must be your son.

 

[Sam]

I have to disagree with Lynton's comment on artistic ability. There are many musicians who are content to buy sheet music and play it, and those who compose their own music. A person can get a tremendous amount of satisfaction from engraving designs from copyright-free pattern books, having done none of the design work themselves, and then there are those to draw everything they cut. Whatever floats your boat. Obviously the person who engraves scroll patterns transferred from books is far more limited than the engraver who creates his own patterns. If your goal is to become a fine engraver who takes commissions, then learning to draw is a must.

Remember, it's not just the destination that's important, but the journey!

 

[Ray Cover]

Let me put my thoughts and experiences in on this.

From a legal standpoint.

When I was first getting started in this game I already had a classical art training and was working on my graduate work in sculpture. For me it was a matter of learning the mechanics of cutting. The design skills had already been learned. To make a long story short I did a job for a customer with a fish jumping out of the water. This ended up being advertised in a magazine and I got a letter from a lawyer saying I was being sued by another artist who had done a painting of a fish jumping out of the water. I can't prove it but I suspect the man thought that there were thousands of these being produced and sold for big money and he wanted a cut of the action (Imagine his suprise when he and his lawyer found out there was only one and the guy's lawyer fees far outcost his recovery from me).

My lawyer said I could fight it and win but it would cost me about $15,000 to do so. My other option was to settle out of court for the amount I was paid for the job which was $900 and $550 for his services. It cost me almost $1500 and I was not guilty of the charge.

I bring this up to point out the very real dangers of copying from other artists' work. If you do copy and get called on it, the other artist gets every penny you made on the work and your lawyer gets his fee. It could be very costly to you.

From an ethical standpoint.

Here I think it depends on what the customer and the engraver expect from each other and the reasons the engraving is being done.

Here is an example that happened to another engraver I know. He was commisioned to engrave a top shelf Parker for a very well known gun dealer. It was a first rate gun and the customer wanted it engraved in the style of the best Parker had to offer in the era the gun was made. The job was done and signed. When the customer found out the gun was signed he therw a fit. Apparently, his intention was to pass it off as an original.

As an engraver I do not want anything to do with this type of crooked behavior and when ask to copy such a job you need to be suspect. There are people out there trying to make counterfiets. In this case there is no question to me that this is unethical behavior as well as illegal fraudulent behavior.

I beleive there are also ethical standards when doing engraving as an "art medium". There is a painting by a well known wildlife artist of an elephant stomping the ground and preparing to charge. I have seen this elephant copied with varying backgrounds and scroll adornments on at least three different guns.

I consider this unethical behavior in this case. Why?

1. because the engraver took the lazy way out. It is easy to copy from other artist's painting, drawings and photographs. It is much harder to originate and compose your own work. Let me rephrase that. Its not much harder but does require more work. I have sat down with the anatomy books and sketch pad to set up many a figure over the years. Yes its work. However, using this process gives you the same standing as the artist who did the painting the other guys copied. You have created something original using the creative process. You have created a true piece of art. What did the guys who copied create? A fine craft maybe, but I would stop way short of calling a copy art.

2. By copying, you have made a buck off of someone else's labor without compensating them for it. In affect you stole their labor, creative ability, and skill to do original work.

This artist took the time and laid out the expense to do his own field sketches or take his own photographs, organize his sketches/photos into an artistic composition, and laid his skill to the materials and tools to create an original painting. Trust me this is a lot of work and a photo field trip to Africa is expensive.

Then some scrimshander or engraver comes along and steals the image (with no regard to what the original artist went through to create it) then puffs his chest out because he was able to make a faithful copy that looks good. So what.

And the concept of one guy's lines not being "Exactly" like the original does not make it any less of a copy. If you did not do your own work but relied on another to do the work for you, you copied.

OK by now a lot of folks are giving me the evil eye and asking the question, "If we can't ethically copy another guy's images how can we engrave images into our work?"

If you think about it you have options. When I travel with the family we always stop by the zoos and animal parks along the trip and I take several rolls of film ( or now days several memory cards) for my camera and I take all the pics I can of any animal I may need a reference for in the future. At this point I have tons of images of all kinds of animals that are my own work.

There are also some very good posing programs out there like DAZ Studio, and Poser that allow you to pose figures and animals in any configuration you need. It is sort of like having a CAD program for figure/animal drawing. I also use these programs as my own personal figure models. They do have a bit of a learning curve but it is worth it to be able to do your own original work.


On the other hand,

If we are talking about production work or resotoration work I don't think the same above standards apply. The customer is not expecting an orignal work of art and everyone involved understands that the engraving is being used as a decorative embelishment to decorate multiple items and not as an art medium to create one of a kind originals.


Ray

 

[Yves Halliburton]

Copyright

Ray, your statements are right on when we one looks at the copyright laws and ethics and I completely stand by your statements in copying other peoples work. I do think that if one askes for his piece to be engraved with a certain image done by an artist he can asked that artist for permission to use it and pay a fee if required by said artist. I can see where a beautiful litho or painting of a scene can be used in such a case. I think as long as the engraver is very clear that he is not the originator and credit is given to the original artist and a clear understanding of the agreement is made. ? How are you with say using a Charles M. Russel painting on the side of a firearm. The copyright laws do not apply here because the artists rendering is past the 75 years of origination. I feel the engraver is free to use this image but I am very clear on the fact that the engraver must indicate that the image is not his original work but from another artist. I do agree that we all must work to create are original work. What to y'all think.

 

[Ray Cover]

Yves,

My personal oppinion is that if it is public domain material there is no problem with using it as long as disclosure is made as to the image's origin.

As long as it is disclosed to the customer and whoever else may be involved with the project that a public domain painting was the source of the image it is fine to use it.

Here is where I personally would draw the line.

1. Using the public domain image yet claiming originality.

2. I would still have a hard time personally claiming such a work as an original work of "fine art" rather than a work of "fine craft" no matter what the level of craftsmanship used in the piece.

Others may feel differently than I do about it and thats fine.

I use engraving as a fine art medium and I want my work to be accepted as fine art rather than fine craft.

In the real art world there are some mediums that will never be accepted as a fine art medium because there is such a prevelance of copying. Scrimshaw is nutorious for this. Unfortunately, engraving and leather carving is looked at in the same light. These are too often lumped in as "crafts" rather than "arts" for one reason. Too few people working in these media use the creative process to design and develop their own original compositions.

In a craft the skill level of the craftsman is appreciated

In an art, not only is the level of craftsmanship appreciated but so is the creativity of and design skills of the artist.

Ray

Ray

 

[Yves Halliburton]

Ray, I concure with your thoughts and appreciate them. I am sad though that the ART world cannot see that Nimschke, Ulrich, McKenzy, White, Young, Alfano, Smith, yourself and others are not considered artists.

 

[Ray Cover]

Yves,

At thsi point in history we are in a serious engraving revival. I beleive that engraving is in the biggest hayday it has ever had and it is still growing. We are in the golden age of engraving right now.

Hopefully, as things grow and as more and more engravers decide to start treating their work as original art, we will catch the attention of the art world as a whole.

Change is always slow to come but hopefully, it will come.

Ray

 

[Ray Cover]

Your right J.C. I did misunderstand what you were saying. I should have read a little more carefully.

Ray

 

[pilkguns]

I have been wanting to respond to this since the beginning, but just have’nt had the time to put it all down. Maybe tonight's the night. Lots of legs to this octopus of copying, some discussed and I’ll yank on a few of my own. Counterfeiting, is for sure a no no, What about upgrading an older gun to higher grade? For sure its good practice work for beginner, but not very challenging for those who have a more creative side. I have done several back in my early years , you know copy’s of Winchester and Parker factory patterns. I have mixed feelings about those kind of guns, where you are duplicating the factory pattern. Is it right to attempt to make it look like something it is not? This is mostly reinforced to me by a Model 12 that I saw some years later as an original #5 factory engraving, that had cleverly had an extra border added around the perimeter that mostly obliterated my signature. It was even spoken of as an extra special engraving pattern because it had the extra border normally not seen. Maybe I did nothing wrong, and the original customer of mine did nothing wrong, but something went astray somewhere. It’s kind of like old cars, everybody wants the one with the all the whistle and bell options that nobody could afford back then, and so there are all these upgraded cars that still bring a good price, but the ones with the factory paperwork saying all those options were originally all there at what REALLY bring a premium. The provenance of the paperwork means everything.

Cutting a Uberti SAA in a genuine Colt pattern, fine go for it. Cutting an old Colt in an orginal pattern…. From a collectors viewpoint and even as artisan….I don’t think it should be down. Using the same style scroll on a different gun, Scroll is a generic thing, and I don’t see any harm in any one doing a specific scroll pattern. Even in the case as discussed of Lynton’s work, what he called Victorian Scroll and mostly called McKenzie Scroll these days in his honor. First I understand he was quite upset and concerned about early copyist of his work and personally feuded with those copiers. He felt he was loosing financially from the other people copying his style. Personally, I think this was misguided thinking on his part, but can understand his views coming from the apprentice trade background that he had. I cannot see that he could produce any more or less of his work, whether or not someone was copying his style. His customer base was buying from him, to buy from HIM, not just to get that unique (at the time) scrollwork. Certainly his scrollwork has become the most copied scroll in America today (and consequently possibly the world) for two reasons. One it looks damn good; it is really classy looking. And two, most importantly, it cuts fast, and easy. It is probably one of the easiest scroll style to cut and look well, and as a consequence it covers a lot of metal quickly. And it can easily be dressed up if you want to do more to it. But that aside, I don’t think he was ever hurt financially from a copyist, just the opposite, I think his fame only grew because of it and allowed him to charge higher prices for his work because of the extra demand. Just the like that 55 T-bird with every option documented as authentic, the real Lynton's work from his hands was worth more than anybody else’s even if Joe Blow engraver down the street could copy it exactly.

And I could see Lynton being offended from the artist side as well. It was his baby so to speak, and he quite honestly wanted it to be kept unique to him. But it was so good, everybody had to taste it and then use his “recipe”. But while he was actively doing it, maybe it should have been left as his exclusive domain out of professional courtesy. Sooooooo, I guess I would say that IMHO it is not kosher to copy someone’s distinct style who is actively doing that style. To illustrate that here is a story that involved me and Sam Alfano. Some years ago I had a knife come in and I had just seen a photograph of the same knife that Sam had done, and for reasons not entirely clear to me then or now, I copied it darn near mirror image . On the front bolster anyway; I did’nt have a picture of the back bolster, so that was still all my own doing , but given the duplicate shape of the rear bolster, and the unusual scroll style, it turned out not that different as I was to find out. I can’t say really why I did it. I was an accomplished engraver at that point, had created several scrolls unique of my own at that time, done guns and knifes in all the normal styles, so it was’nt like I had to copy it from any artistic lacking on my part, it was that I liked the uniqueness of what he had done, I liked Sam, (I did then and still do consider him a good friend) and maybe even I did it partly as a tribute to him. I can’t really say why I did, just that I did it. Well I took this knife to NJ Knife Show to sell and one of the first people I showed it to was Sam. And Sam was gallant about it, but told me he was not happy about me copying his work. Something was said about "Was what if his customer saw it, and wondered who had copied who". Well that hit me pretty hard, because for sure, I would not have wanted Sam to be in that position with his customer. I did and still do have a lot of respect for Sam as a designer. I even offered to not sell the knife and keep it, but Sam and I both knew that would have impacted me financially pretty hard at the time and he said something to the effect , "Well don’t worry about it, probably he will never see this knife". So I sold it, and it actually ended up in a NY sporting good store, who photographed that same knife and ran it in their ads for the next two or three years. I was heartsick every time I opened up a new magazine and saw that same ad again let me tell you. to this day I do not know if Sam's client ever saw my copy. Maybe Sam "Harvey" will tell us the rest of the story.

But moving on to today, and the internet and copying. There is a lot of free mentality amongst internet users, whether its software or music or pictures, if you can snag and use it, you do. Not just the younger Napster sets but even among the older crowds. To be honest I see it in myself sometimes and others I know. Just last week my 13 year old was showing me how she was taking some pictures of a friend of hers on her horse, and was using Photoshop to wipe out the big white letters PROOF across the image. I gave her a big talking to about the business she has of making posters (see http://www.pilk-uns.com/
), and complains about people don’t want to pay her for a poster cause they know that they can get the picture free online and yet here she was doing the same thing she was complaining about. Another person I know who is very protective of his artistic work, was/is involved with cracking software and sharing that online. Hypocritical? I think yes. And me? Have I been the beneficiary of some of that cracking cause I did’nt want to spend 3 or 400 dollars for some program? Am I just as guilty? I think also yes.

Here's a real close question. A couple of threads down is Tira’s thread about monograms. I offered to send her something I have from a book I bought and paid for. I have given this same info to other friends. And I don’t think anyone would say that loaning a friend a book, or a CD, or copying a scroll or an animal on a one time use is going against anyone’s laws or ethics. But what about multiple giveaways? Am I taking something from the publisher… and yes, I have given this away in classes when discussing monograms. After all it’s only a bunch of letters from the alphabet that anybody can draw . Right??? But I have wondered whether what I was doing was OK in the real sense of the thing. And then I got a number of responses asking me to send them a copy as well, or just put it on online for all to see. Is that really right? I don’t know but I really don’t think so. For the record the sheet is from the book The Jewelry Engravers Manual by R. Allen Hardy I believe and is available from the major Jewelry supply houses, and do recommend to all my students that they get a copy to have on hand, and now I recommend you do the same. Every engraver needs it in their library! And I can justify my giving away their copyrighted material as a promotional effort to get my students to buy their book. And no doubt over the years, maybe I have sold 200 or more books that might not have been had it not been for my free handouts.. but was it really right to begin with??…… geesssh…. Its getting late and I have had a long day, even did some engraving today. Yea for me…. And I hav’ent even gotten to the discussion about copying artists from other mediums, painting, sculpture, taxidermy, photography, although I think Ray said a lot of what I wanted to say

 

[pilkguns]

oh I just read JC's post above. Good comments as well

 

[Yves Halliburton]

Honesty

Scott, I applaud your honesty on this subject and I think it has made a definate impact on many of us new engravers. I will say that I have copied a few patterns from Nimschke's book, because the customer wanted that specific Model 1866 pattern. People who have seen the gun loved it and even though I made it clear that is was not my work I still felt that I did not accomplish much. As Ray says, it was fine kraft not fine art. As for that wonderful No. 5 Model 12 pattern, I just love it. I have used several variations of that layout using my own scroll, birds etc and you can see it is not an original Factory Job and am not claiming it to be or would ever attempt to. But do you think Mr. Ulrich is rolling over in his grave because we used his layout. I have seen several prominant engravers use that pattern (layout) using their own scroll etc. and one can see it was done by A.A. White. I kind of think Mr. Ulrich would be pleased that his layout is still used today. Your thoughts.

 

[Don Cowles]

Scott, your comments are 24K gold. Thanks for the introspection, the conscience, and the conclusions. You are a solid guy!

 

[pilkguns]

Don, thanks for your words of affirmation. It means a lot.

Yves, In the long sense of things, I am sure Mr. Ulrich is pleased with his contribution to the engraving world. And maybe Lynton is too now. Although I am proud to say that I enjoyed several personal interactions with Lynton either as a learner or a peer, I can’t say that I knew him well enough know his thoughts on the matter. But I would guess that his gradual openness in sharing that came in his later career may have shown a change of mind about his early offense at being copied. I mean after all, its not everybody who has scrolled named after them. Us engravers are a misunderstood sort, the art itself is esoteric and that lack of understanding leads to a lot of false praise. Getting praise from your mom, or spouse, or neighbor, or even most of your customers really means nothing because they have no clue what is right or wrong. The customers don’t know anything and there are more than few fulltime engravers out there that whose work is so awful that I would’nt have them cutting the lug nuts on a wrecked Ford Pinto for me. And to be honest , I see a lot of false praise on these engraver forums of some of this same work. But I digress, the point I wanted to make was that as engraver, when you get positive feedback from your peers who you know, KNOW what they are talking about, it means a LOT more than praise from everyone else. I have said before, that is the real attraction of the Grand Master’s or FEGA show for engravers, because it’s a chance for top engravers to see each other’s work and get feedback, positive and negative from those who really KNOW good from bad. And it is in this respect, that I think Lynton would be pleased that his scroll is copied so much and bears his name. Maybe Sam could share his thoughts on the subject as Sam would have known his mindset better. I think perhaps this is the same thing happening with Winston Churchill now. For years and years and decades he kept to himself and was very secretive about his technique. But in the last few years, he has really enjoyed getting out at the Grand Masters and really interacting with his peers, and getting those mental strokes that no one else can really provide. Yes, the customers paying the big bucks for the work are essential, but I guarantee you that the memory of a Phil Grifnee or a Ron Smith or Rick Eaton saying something like , “You know, I really like the way you worked this scroll and around this funny protusion and blended it all together ” is the memory that brings a smile to Winston’s face more frequently than the customer saying , “Boy I like that, it sure turned out good, heres your check for $50,000.”

On the subject of Model 5 patterns again, and also getting a little bit to copying work from other mediums. I have on occasion used other peoples artwork exactly. Once I did the National Duck Stamp winning artist’s design on his shotgun. Obviously that was Ok with his consent. I have used flat art, or taxidermery mounts as scenes at the customer’s request, but I would always put the initials of original artist or the taxidermist in the scene just like their signature. I did a couple of pair of Model 12s in a #5 scroll pattern for a good customer years ago but instead of using the Winchester game scenes, we used the pen and ink illustrations from Robert Ruark’s classic book The Old Man and the Boy. A read I would highly recommend to anyone BTW. Again, I put the illustrators initials in the artwork. I actually had a discussion with the customer, that he wanted me to use a black lab for the dogs rather than the setters that were in the real pictures because the customer had Black Labs. I was like, No Damnit, these are scenes from the Boy’s life and they did’nt have black labs, they had setters and I did’nt feel like I had the artistic license to change such a detail. If they were going to be tribute to a fine book that we both loved, then By Jingoes they were going to be an un-altered tribute or I was’nt going to do it. And finally the customer agreed after some heated discussion and at the end was happy with it all. But in this case I was not altering the work because it would have been an improper usage of the artist's intent in my mind, kind of like giving Mona Lisa blue eyes.

I gottta get to work, later guys and gals

 

[Sam]

When I first met Lynton he was very secretive about many things, but did open up in later years. Why I don't really know, but I assume, like many of us, he felt the need to pass it on. He felt that those who cloned his style of scrollwork hurt him financially because some of them could cut it quite well, and charged a hell of a lot less than he did. While it wasn't an original McKenzie engraving job, it offered a customer the same 'look' at considerably less cost. Advanced collectors of high-end guns and knives would still want the original done by Lynton, but there were (and are) plenty of other buyers ready to purchase the look-alike. I'm sure Lynton is pleased to have left behind a style of scrollwork bearing his name, but I'm not sure how he would feel about people copying it after his death. I'm not implying he would be unhappy with it...I'm saying I just don't know. I can tell you this though, he would encourage all engravers to develop their own style.

At Grandmasters '06 Winston Churchill told the story of hand drawing and engraving a copy of a cape buffalo he saw in a magazine. The job was later published and he received a letter or call from the person who painted the original, wanting an explanation as to why Winston copied it. To make a long story short, Winston apologized for not changing the drawing enough to keep it from looking like a copy, and they left on friendly terms. This was early in Winston's career, I might add. It was a lesson learned and one he would not repeat.

Every one of us, including some of the greatest engravers in the world, have copied something at one point or another. McKenzie struggled with drawing figures and wildlife, and Ned Diefenthal (the son of the owner of New Orleans Arms Co.) would often photographically scale and reproduce animals and figures taken from books and magazines for Lynton to engrave.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

All of which proves, at the end of the day, we are only human. Ethics and morality are fine subjects on an intellectual level but the day to day realities are generally quite different. Most of us live in a world of shades of grey. There is a danger of taking the high ethical and moral ground on any subject as there is only one way to fall. The phrase “Do as I say, not as I doâ€￾ comes to mind, or put another way “When you live in a glass house, don’t throw stonesâ€￾.

Copying, forgery, plagiarism and the like have been around since Adam and will always continue to be. What separates the artist from the art? Is anything truly original? Evolution of styles is a continual process. As an artist breaks through certain barriers and exposes their art to the rest world generally speaking their work is cloned until something new comes from it. Outside influences effect and influence our work every day either on a conscious or subliminal level. A leaf here, a scroll there. Most of us end up re-inventing the wheel every day without even realising it.

One thing will always remain true. Unique, beautiful, talented and original work will always be highly sought after by a discerning section of any society.

Merry Christmas
Andrew Biggs

 

[Sam]

Andrew, you are a very wise man. Many thanks for sharing your wisdom. / ~Sam

 

[John B.]

Hi Andrew.
Good on you, mate. Thanks for all your help this year.
Sounds as if we both believe on the old saying "Steal from one, that's plagiarism. Steal from many, that's research."
Best to you and Merry Christmas.
John B.

 

[Doc Mark]

Sam & any other interested parties,

I've only begun to engrave (15 months) and ever since I found these forums, I've been reading about Lynton and his oft' copied scroll patterns. Where can I see examples of these works. (I plan on copying them verbatum!... just kidding!) I've got Smith's books and Meek's. Are there examples in either of these that I missed? Is there a book on his works? Why do you feel his designs became a classic? What elements stood out above others.

To throw my 2 cents into the mix. I was a commercial artist for a few years, back in the early 80's. I did a considerable number of pen & ink drawings for the Navy and the Air Force. Mostly ship "portraits" and aircraft with squadron markings. These were always copied from photos specifically chosen by the military. I signed the work and was proud of my technique, but never felt "artistically fullfilled", but it was a paying job. Now at the same time I also did true "originals" based on my own photographs, most of the time modifing the image to change it slightly from my own photo. But, there were times that I was so pleased with the photo's composition, that I changed nothing. I still felt justified to call these my own. Now on three occasions I needed to do a etching or pen & ink drawing of a European landmark that I'd never visited. How many photos of Neuschwanstein castle or the Eiffel Tower look exactly alike? I feel that there are some images that are either only seen from one vantage point or only look pleasing from one view, that they have essentially become iconographic and "public domain" and every photo looks the same. Do I really need to go to Paris and take my own photo of the Eiffel Tower before I can draw it and call it an original work of art? I truly don't believe so. Now, if I copied someone else's painting or etching of the Eiffel Tower, that would, in my opinion, be unethical.

Even though I've never had the chance of doing a game scene on a firearm, I would not feel guilty copying a cape buffalo from National Geographic. I would change the backgrounds etc. but if I liked the specific pose, I see nothing wrong with using it fairly faithfully. I know I will never get to Africa and get to go on a safari and take my own photos. And zoos don't create the situations needed to get an animal to pose in a "beligerant attack pose".

If a customer wanted a certain sporting dog on a rifle and I couldn't find one in my area, why can't I look up photos from a dog book or the Westminster Kennel Club books and use them for reference? If I change the spot pattern on the dog in the photo, does that make it original? I honestly don't know.

I'm glad this subect came up, as it really helps hearing true professionals wrestling with this problem. And this can only help us beginners make better decisions.

Keep the discussions going we all will benefit.

By the way Sam, don't you feel a little guilty? Have you been to the FEGA website recently? There has hardly been a new posting in their forum since you opened The Cafe!

 

[Glenn]

Here is another situation to this copying debate. I have little to no artistic talent. I enjoy engraving as a hobby. I do not sell my work. Some people are unfortunate enough to get my scratchings as a gift. Mostly I engrave my own knives and guns. I'm doing a game scene on an action that is mostly copied from a painting. When I get it done I'll show it on this forum. Should I feel guilty for copying? I'm too old to start a buisiness of engraving. So there are no plans in that direction.
Regards,
Guilty as Hell