Gun Engraving and True Hand Engraving A Study Guide of Design, Tools and Techniques

[Ron Smith]

Welcome to the world of mass intelligence.

This has been a constant situation since the begining of time. Some people serve the people who don't know any better and they are the majority. It is a world of it's own making with the passion left out. It is more about vanity, ego, and money.

And anyone that thinks that modern engravers aren't trying their best to inform the public, is not aware of the generous teachers all around this trade. It was not this way for many of us in our day. Information is flowing freely and it is not up to the engravers to teach the public or someone to engrave, but there are many willing to do so and are doing it. Once you get past a certain point, general public gun shows are abandoned by the engravers that spend far more time on their work. You cannot find anyone that will fork over the cash. Hey, they just want an engraving whether it be with a ten penny nail graver, or a grinder. Who cares if it is cheap.

And of course once they have invested in a piece of crap, their ego will not let them admit it, so the beat goes on. They can't make a profit on it if they run it down.

It is really the students that will tout our values and spread the word more than those who are just in it for their own glory.

I agree that there is not enough information describing good engraving from bad, but engravers have so little time to do anything but torture metal, they don't have the time to spend, for they often don't get paid for that. They give freely anyway.

Journalist get power and gifts from engravers wanting exposure, so I don't know if this condition will ever go away.

An excellent engraver inhabits an intirely different world than the engraver just serving the masses. It is a much much narrower group. Most of them don't know shik from shinola, if you get my drift, and until an engraver wants to go to the general gun show and get thoroughly insulted by the intelligence of the crowd, the general public will go uneducated, driven by his pocket book and the blather of the journalists that might have gotten a free engraving in trade for some exposure for the engraver. Then of course he is duty bound to glorify the engraver envolved.

Jeez, I wish I could change that, for there are a lot more good men deserving of that exposure and not getting it, but what's new? That is the way it was, that is the way it is, and probably will continue to be. It is that age old ignorance of the masses about the subject.

Just keep on turning out the exceptional work and someone important with the bucks and ability to see value might step up with his check book at the ready. It is pretty slim pickings, but it is reality.

Our gratifications don't come from that anyway. Our pursuit is quality and perfection. If we manage to get paid a decent price for spending time with our passion, wow, that is the reward, including the true appreciation of someone who knows the difference.

There are a lot of misconceptions with those just intering the "trade". These are just a few of the realities, particularly of the occupational engraver.

And that is my two cents on the subject.

Ron S

 

[Ray Cover]

BOY take a break from mopping the floors and look what I run into:big grin: What a thread!

I agree with everything Ron just said. Ron you are absolutely right.

There are other misconceptions this guy is hedging on that Mark has already alluded to. What I am talking about is the notion that the old masters like Michelangelo would not have stooped to using labor saving devices like airgravers.

The truth is they used every labor saving device they could find. Their best one was a group of guys called apprentices. When I was taking one of my art history classes many moons ago the sheer volume of work that some of these old masters produced was amazing to me. I ask about it and my instructor told us that many of these old masters used a labor saving device called apprentices. The apprentices would do the grunt work and the artist himself would do the finish work. As the apprentices progressed in their skill they were trusted with higher levels of work until the artist was doing the design and the actual finish work and not much else.

So to go on about the old masters "hand only without labor saving devices" work ethic is misguided at best. The fact is many of the old masters didn't even do their own foundational work much of the time.

Another aspect of this I would like to point out is that time weeds out the weak.

I love to go to museums and look at the historical artifacts. The pieces that always end up on display in the main galleries are the ones of highest quality or historical importance.

100 years from now the work of guys like Ron, Sam, Steve, and others of that quality will be in museums as examples of fine American engraving. Work of low quality may be in a folk art exhibit or a Primitive American Folk Craft exhibit but they will never make the cut for anything else. Time will weed guys like this out. Museum curators do not have to deal with sales pitches or this guys marketing. Long after we are gone they can look at the art for what it is and make proper choices as to what is quality and what is not, what is important to the body of American engraving and what is not.

I know that doesn't help now. Now the only line of defense to the buying public is "Buyer Beware" as Kurt pointed out.

My 2 cents,

Ray

 

[gail.m]

"You are either a Luddite, contemporary, or a hypocrite."


Roger, You take the cake with that one!

gail

 

[Two Claws]

I'm many shades paler on the greener portion of the spectrum (regarding my forum time here...not in general experience) to comment with any weight on this enlightening thread, but I have to give thanks to all who've contributed so honestly. As it progressed, the comments became less emotional (though passion is warranted) and more objective (better for rational analysis). On the whole, all opinions help to paint the image of the state of our minds on this heartfelt subject.....some prefer broader slashing strokes...others with a detail brush highlighting important but less obvious truths. There was some really good writing here....thank you.

 

[mitch]

My turn! My turn!

Marcus- dead on. in fact, you were a lot more polite than i would've been. (Hey, he sucks with a hammer & chisel- i'm guessing he'd suck with $5,000 worth of pneumatic eqpt, too, but he could suck a lot faster...)

Fred- You brought up a good point about educating the engraving buying public. Over 20 yrs ago i made a serious attempt to address this issue in the gun press. I talked with Ron, Lynton, Winston, probably Sam(?), and a few other engravers, along with a handful of the top gunmakers. Everybody was on board for supplying photos, commentary, etc. to put together a comprehensive series of detailed, fully illustrated articles. All the magazines- and I pitched it to ALL of them- were willfully disinterested. When i pointed out that not EVERY SINGLE ARTIST/CRAFTSMAN was worthy of the embarrassingly gushing prose lavished upon them (some glaringly so) their attitude was basically, "Well, our subscribers like to read about the best, the greatest, the finest, etc., and it's not really hurting anybody to disabuse them of that notion." I'm Not Making That Up. I would appreciate you keeping me in the loop on your project- I may well have notes left over from years ago and have recently started taking steps to revisit this matter, thanks.

Ron (aka 'Stubby' Smith, Snuffy's cousin)- You're ever the diplomatic voice of reason. I often wish I had your even temperament. Best to you & Liz.

 

[Mike Fennell]

Good luck with educating the general public. I don't expect to see that happen within my lifetime.

I won a beautiful Mike Dubber bracelet at Scott's this weekend and showed it to some friends I met on the way home. They instantly started raving about what a laser engraving machine could do. I was so astonished that I started laughing. I told them that such work can only be done by hand and challenged them to find me a laser that could do such work.

I wouldn't know where to begin to educate these people, and they are my good friends. How you would educate someone you have never met before is something I have not yet figured out. Any ideas?

Mike Fennell

 

[Gemsetterchris]

I still get people proudly showing me their "solid" gold rings, just don`t have the heart to explain that they are containing alloys

 

[JJ Roberts]

I have to agree with Mike about educating the public,the people I meet at gun shows think Iam the only engraver on the planet.Your a rare breed,this must be a lost art,did you do all that engraving,you must be a master,where's your dremel tool,on & on.A few years ago at a gun fair in Maryland,I meet a man from Dallas Texas I had to educate him about all the talanted gun engravers in Texas past & present. It kind a funny when you think about it. J.J.Roberts

 

[KSnyder]

I probably shouldn't but I will anyway. First, I saw the guys works,I was appalled at the horrible cutting. Those poor guns!
I don't think its a matter of using what to cut, but ask some of the guys that had to start h&c like Scott P., Sam A., Fancygun, Ron S. Lee G. and I think these guys would tell you it takes longer learn h&c than air/power. These guys can still turn out fabulous work with h&c if they chose too.
Those who cut their teeth on power/ air assist would not be able to cross over to h&c so easily. The motor skills of power / air and stand up or sit down h&c are much different than holding the tools and running/turning your work into the tool . Hammer you are the compressor piston controling the taps and moving the vise. Like running a Southbend on power feed or running the table yourself. If you ever ran a lathe you know what I'm talking about. Anyone who has been active in this forum knows the incredible amount of knowledge freely given to those sincere. I being self taught have gleened countless precious bits of advice that have saved me much lost time. However we choose to cut I think in the end all of us strive for the best cut we can give to the canvas regardless of how we choose to meet this end.

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Yeah JJ .... Mike is right.

.... then there's trying to explain the difference between laser engraved/hand chased work from the real thing. It can get down to details which are basically indistinguishable to the average person. Trying to explain all this to someone who can't afford it is what makes the effort fruitless .... especially in the contracting market were in now.

Carefully choosing the battles are where the efforts in educating people need to be placed. As individual engravers, we don't have the time or capacity to mass communicate. That's what a guild is for. When someone drops $3000 on a ring and wants it engraved, he/she will usually go the extra distance when shown the difference between hand and machine work.

I'm finding that unconventional distribution avenues for different types of work are proving very worthy. Last year, I sold a cased, cap & ball revolver (with accessories) through a jewelry store for a heckofa lot more than a gun collector ever would have paid. That same store loved the novelty of the item so much, they just sent me a 2nd Gen Colt Navy to give the same treatment. Same goes for knives. Why go head to head with collectors in a relative and faltering market who want a specific name associated with a gun or knife when there's a completely different audience that have the cash, appreciate the quality of work and especially the "art". Those folks are more than ever apprehensive to spend on gold or platinum but still want something unique and nice.

If anything is going to make a worthy topic of discussion for engravers to survive a geometrically shrinking economy, this would be it. Sure as heck beats preaching to the dumb masses who are as flat broke as many of us will soon be .... if not already.

I've watched the jewelry engraving and the motorcycle engraving almost completely dry up. What's not drying up is the selling of items of value in a completely unrelated market. Parking my engraved Harley at the front door of the Greenbrier Hotel, with a stack of business cards on the seat, would serve a better purpose than sweating it out at a bike show discussing hand engraving to a bunch of people eating fried onions who are more interested in where they are gonna get drunk and pass out later. Trust me on this one .... it's just like a highly embellished Colt's Navy revolver in a jewelry store display case .... when the head valet sees that bike, he wants it right by the door. It's all part of the show that raises curiosity and draws people IN. That's precisely when and where you "educate".

We're slowly coming into the 9th inning stretch boys and girls .... so hold on to yer britches 'cause this is where the passion turns into poison if yer not careful.

 

[pilkguns]

There is a lot of wise words there Chris... well said. It sums up why I quit doing gun shows (even major ones) and started doing the Art shows like the Easton and the Southeastern Wildlife Exposition. Much more expensive to get in the door, both for you the seller and your would be client, but the odds of picking up nice work went up dramatically. Welll I have to get back to writing Thank you notes to Engrave-In contributors.

 

[Gemsetterchris]

You can only educate those interested.
Many live their lives clueless anout jewellery or engraving unlike us here.

Then again we are cluless about other things when we need them, probably a forum with washing machine sellers moaning the same thing.

If you want a decent one you may spend the time doing the homework or just buy the nearest one that will do...

 

[Ron Smith]

Right on Chris,

The reality of diversification or die comes into focus, does it not?

There is a large part of the general public that appreciates our efforts even if it is just a very simple job, which you will make more money with anyway. And soliciting to the general population with quality work even though it is minute in it's time to accomplish, will bring far greater rewards in the way of promotion, particularly locally, unless you have a very big reputation in this art.

So, diversification is the ticket to survival, and the reputation will develope as you go. If you make yourself a houshold word with the masses, think of all those customers out there just not knowing you exist because you are trying for the top instead of working your way up. You win wars with numbers and intelligence. Together they are an overwhelming force that cannot be denied, sorry to use war as a metafore, but it is a war of survival of sorts and it is the principal that is important.

The public really likes unique things too, even though they might be ignorant about how it is done. Those customers were as important to me as the high rollers, and maybe more so, because their numbers gave me a running hope of maintaining income and stability as a result. Learning how to run an engraving business is probably as great a challenge as learning to engrave. You are probably better doing it as a hobby and making a living otherwise, until your reputation reaches far out ahead of you. You still have marketing however, and an engraver or craftsman has to be multi-talented, for he is not likely to keep up with the mass mentality of the current economic conditions.

This culture today thinks that if you don't have any customers, raise your prices so you can make more money. This thinking is against the fact that there is far more money in mass production or volume than one piece at a time. Ask Henry Ford................

It is sweat work and boring sometimes, but it pays the bills and it is only boring if you are only doing repetetive jobs and that is the beauty of diversity. Each job becomes a special project if you treat it that way. And adding a little uniqueness will go a long way to building the kind of reputation that will help carry you, particularly if you agree to do things that others won't tackle. Even repetative jobs like monogramming silverware are the best means of boosting your profits if you can stand it.

So finding little things that people like with slight decoration on it is speedy but profitable. I know that in the environment students inhabit (classes and such), they get used to seeing the very best and they think they have to duplicate that before they can engage. Not so.

All one can do is the best he can at any given point in time and vow to improve. That is a bit of an advantage in dealing with general public minds for they don't know the difference.

I know a lot has been said about getting to a proficient level before exposing yourself, but Collectors and general public are two different groups. You will move out of one and into another in time based on the trail you lay down. It is much more important the way you relate to your prescious customers and the integrity and patience with which you conduct yourself and your work than anything else. Do that and the rest will come.

Starvation tends to sharpen the wit...............does it not?......... and that is almost as important as the sharpening of your tools.

Prosperity tends to open doors to frivolous opinions. When survival gets to be the case, watch the B.S. go away along with other pre-concieved notions. It is then you are looking reality in the eye.

Ron S

 

[leroytwohawks]

Very well said Chris, and gives us all a new avenue of places to look at placing our work out for sale. Great idea for the jewelery store also, as it brings in more customers to see what custom engraved item they have next!!!

Kevin

 

[DKanger]

Here's his actual website. He intimates that he does Ithaca's factory engraving, without actually saying he does.

http://www.stephenolin.com/

 

[leroytwohawks]

If you look at the Ithaca website they do show some of his engraved guns and acknowledge him as one of there custom gun engravers.

Kevin

Here's his actual website. He intimates that he does Ithaca's factory engraving, without actually saying he does.

http://www.stephenolin.com/

 

[Christopher Malouf]

Ron, I'm glad to see you back on the forum and I hope you are doing well.

Sun Tzu would definitely agree with your reference to intelligence ... and use it wisely to defeat an overwhelming adversary which could very well be machine engraving, the onslaught of poor hand work being marketed as "master" grade or mostly, a terrible economy.

Many times you have mentioned "diversify". That is the single most important message you have conveyed on this forum. I don't think enough have taken the time to really listen. I've learned that diversification is imperative at multiple levels .... not only in what you engrave but how you engrave it - including the style you choose. That's the key to survival. That's "versatility". Regardless, it must always be executed to the very best of one's ability.

Many engravers are biased. Some believe that if it is not firearms engraving or high end knives, it is beneath them. Most of my work is not signed but I am glad that I am capable of work that is worth signing.

I'm still a pessimist when it comes to dealing with, and educating, "the masses" and that's why I try to keep my skills at least one step ahead of my current customer base. In doing so, I create my own demand. A customer base that is sophisticated enough to know what they are looking at does exist and it is just a matter of bringing the work to them.

"Prosperity tends to open doors to frivolous opinions."

How so very true and this forum has an abundance of that.

I sure wish I had the luxury of doing this as a hobby. Too late to turn back now. I'll be curious to see how many more sell their tools and call it quits in the coming year or so. Maybe I'll be one of them, maybe not but I'll certainly be grateful to get every bit of increase in market share of an overall shrinking market.

As dismal as things may seem, I just keep cutting with one eye on the prosperous days which will hopefully return again soon.

 

[Peter E]

On my way home, I stopped for lunch in Port Jervis, NY. Across from the diner was an interesting looking military surplus store and on the sign "knives" was also boldly listed, which piqued my interest.

The shop featured predominantly new imported merchandise, and the knives nearly all inexpensive tacticals, and the best of them were some Randalls.

The guys running the store were VERY friendly and noticed my "Engrave-In" shirt, which led to a conversation about engraving. When I mentioned I do metal engraving, one said "you should see the laser engraving we do"!

I replied "that is NOT engraving, but etching the surface with a laser". One of the two had NO CLUE what the difference was, and the owner, who did the laser engraving with his $25,000 programmable laser, agreed with me.

However, from a business perspective, that is what he was making money selling! He showed me some of his products, which were nice, but NOT in any way something a customer looking for "hand engraving" would desire. They also made "dog tags" by machine and a customer (male in his teens) came in for one while I was there. It took literally less time to make it than it took for the customer to say what he wanted on it!

I guess it just illustrates what Chris and others have been saying about uneducated customers?

 

[Mike Fennell]

Hi, Ron, Chris (all three of you) , Peter, Leroy, Scott, and all others too numerous to mention here.

Thank you all for the detailed answer to my question. Now I know who to try to educate and how to go about it. Isn't this a great forum?

Mike Fennell

 

[rayf24]

Gentlemen
I have just read all the posts about the formentioned person and spent some time looking at his site as well as the youtube clips. I myself have only been scratching metal for several months but have had an interest in hand engraving for some 30 years and and have seen many fine examples of engraving when I worked in the gun trade for approx 10 years, and would like to say that I think the standard of the top engravers:bow::bow: has never been as good as it is today and even thoses of us that are trying to reach a standarded that is acceptable. As for the person that the post speaks of and I would have to agree with many of the comments.
I think as marcus said he is a legend in his own lunch box (sorry world) and given time his doctors may be able to get the medication balance right and this will help his delusions of grandure and allow him the chance to come into the real world,but then if one tells the same bulls--t long enough some people will beleive it and pay for crap as someone put it. as for sitting here in the UK it make me wonder are people around NY I thing was the location easly fooled as to what quality engraving looks like and the amount of hours , talent and skill that go into the nice work that we now see.
rayf24
p.s my guide dog like his work but then what does he know he's blind in one eye and lost the other watching the youtube clips (joke)