Gravers and how we sharpen them.....

[coincutter]

Marcus

Cant speak to the hardness isues you are dealing with but ok with everything else
I know the old guy would have had a ball with an Airgraver

Email me that trick re the dual heals as i missed it somewhere
i have some tutorials to put together so i will be out of pocket for a while

i just use my fixture to do very basic shaping of my gravers and from there i cut them by hand under the scope. Never sure who's design i am using, whatever works is what i go with and always experimenting.

this bolt you are working with - tried calling the manufacturer to see if they have a clue. As good as you are with resists and mordants what about coating it - scratching out the design and then hit it with the nitric
maybe the anealing only goes so far and you can recut over the top with the graver.

 

[coincutter]

put it under the scope and lets see this beastie thing
s

 

[Swede]

Marcus, what are you doing when you attempt to anneal the bolt handle? I cannot imagine the handle to be made of anything except a medium to higher carbon steel, and it should respond to a correct annealing process... it should follow the normal laws of metallurgy.

If the idea is to anneal just the handle, and not mess with the temper of the bolt itself (that would be dangerous) it needs to be taken above a certain temperature, then allowed to cool SLOWLY. The slowly part is the trick. If you are applying, say, a torch to the handle, taking it to a dull red, then just removing the fire, I'm guessing the much more massive bolt body is drawing all the heat off the handle, and the cooling rate is accelerated to the point where it re-hardens, perhaps to a state even worse than when it started.

Perhaps you can use an old toolmaker's trick... hot sand. Protect the bolt body as much as possible, and get the handle to the temp it needs, then immerse it and cover it in a fine sand that is already pre-warmed, perhaps in the oven. The sand insulates and slows the cooling.

Good luck, there's no reason that bolt handle cannot be annealed if it is a standard steel, and not made of solid carbide or stellite!

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Hi Swede, thanks for that. Eventually I did manage to get it to anneal. Usually its a case of taking it up to red heat and then just letting it cool. I guessed for some reason it was air hardening so, not having any sand, it just backed off with the torch gradually taking it down through black heat over a 10 minute period - it seemed to work. Must get a small bucket of sand for future use.

 

[PS_Bond]

Marcus - a bucket full of vermiculite from your local garden centre will give you a slower cooling rate than sand will.

Mind you, a bucket of wood ash works quite well too.

 

[Glenn]

Marcus,
I use lime to slow the cooling process. I've used it for 40 years and it still works. I keep a garbage can with a lid on it. When the part is cherry red I submerge it in the lime. Care must be taken as with other acid or basic materials.

 

[threefingerdave]

PS Bond
Be careful with the vermiculite as a lot of it has asbestos in it.

 

[PS_Bond]

Good point, but not the stuff we get in the UK

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Peter, what is vermiculite and where do I get it from?

Glenn, is the lime you use the same as the stuff you put on the garden to adjust the ph?

 

[Ron Smith]

Hi guys,
I learned to sharpen by hand, but it took me about ten years before I cold get it consistent. It was the hardest thing to learn in being an engraver. The modern sharpening methods are general anyway as much as you can do miraculous things right from the start. I use the McKenzie method also for steel engraving, and Frank Hendricks had a quick sharpening system, and you should have seen E.C. Prudhomme go at it.The beauty of these methods is, it is fast and you don't have to mess with calibrations etc. In an old world engraving shop you couldn't waste time sharpening tools, altough that was relative to the materials engravers had to work on in those days, so it is kind of relative. Just a few strokes and your done with the exception of stropping or whatever you need to do to prepare the tool for a specific job. There is a lot of merit to the arced belly which used to be shaped by rapping the tool on a mandril while red hot to put a curve to it. This was great for script lettering and monogramming, but the tools then were carbon steel and you had to go through the tempering processes to toughen them. Of course I am talking about the palm tool being pushed by hand, because It is critical to get the points right or they won't cut, whereas the pneumatic tool will cut anything, even with a damaged tip. You don't have to have the same sensitivity in your hands with the pneumatic tools, and the stress level is dimished by an unbelievable proportion. The modern engraver doesn't understand the value of the sharpening devices and tools of today's engravers. They are responsible for giving the amateur a leg up, getting him started much earlier. You can argue the benifits of one style of sharpening over another, but you still can't get the finesse of the hand sharpened tool. Count your blessings fellows and like Marcus said, experimentation is essential to make that tool do whatever you want it to. there are some good creative minds out there and you will eventually find your own way that works for you. That is just the frustrations of being an all around engraver. That is also the difference in a "Master" and an ameteur. You can't imagine some of the contortions of the old tools to do specific jobs in a hand engraving shop. Those modern sharpening devices are blessings and allowed many to become engravers that probably wouldn't have otherwise, but there is still merit in learning about the older ways too. Just thought I would pass along some "old" information for your interest. We have come a long way baby and the modern methods have created a renaissance of interest. It probably would have died otherwise, but then that is the value of good information which was sorely lacking in my time and others of my age group. It is too beautiful an art form to languish because engravers won't share. I salute you all for keeping our lives alive, because it is through your passion that we older guys live on, and you are creating a future beyond for later engravers. Thanks..............for your efforts to perfect the grace that lies within you. You add beauty to the world around you and if no one else understands your passion, I do for whatever that is worth. Carry on!
Ron S

 

[Ron Smith]

Hi guys,
I learned to sharpen by hand, but it took me about ten years before I cold get it consistent. It was the hardest thing to learn in being an engraver. The modern sharpening methods are general anyway as much as you can do miraculous things right from the start. I use the McKenzie method also for steel engraving, and Frank Hendricks had a quick sharpening system, and you should have seen E.C. Prudhomme go at it.The beauty of these methods is, it is fast and you don't have to mess with calibrations etc. In an old world engraving shop you couldn't waste time sharpening tools, altough that was relative to the materials engravers had to work on in those days, so it is kind of relative. Just a few strokes and your done with the exception of stropping or whatever you need to do to prepare the tool for a specific job. There is a lot of merit to the arced belly which used to be shaped by rapping the tool on a mandril while red hot to put a curve to it. This was great for script lettering and monogramming, but the tools then were carbon steel and you had to go through the tempering processes to toughen them. Of course I am talking about the palm tool being pushed by hand, because It is critical to get the points right or they won't cut, whereas the pneumatic tool will cut anything, even with a damaged tip. You don't have to have the same sensitivity in your hands with the pneumatic tools, and the stress level is dimished by an unbelievable proportion. The modern engraver doesn't understand the value of the sharpening devices and tools of today's engravers. They are responsible for giving the amateur a leg up, getting him started much earlier. You can argue the benifits of one style of sharpening over another, but you still can't get the finesse of the hand sharpened tool. Count your blessings fellows and like Marcus said, experimentation is essential to make that tool do whatever you want it to. there are some good creative minds out there and you will eventually find your own way that works for you. That is just the frustrations of being an all around engraver. That is also the difference in a "Master" and an ameteur. You can't imagine some of the contortions of the old tools to do specific jobs in a hand engraving shop. Those modern sharpening devices are blessings and allowed many to become engravers that probably wouldn't have otherwise, but there is still merit in learning about the older ways too. Just thought I would pass along some "old" information for your interest. We have come a long way baby and the modern methods have created a renaissance of interest. It probably would have died otherwise, but then that is the value of good information which was sorely lacking in my time and others of my age group. It is too beautiful an art form to languish because engravers won't share. I salute you all for keeping our lives alive, because it is through your passion that we older guys live on, and you are creating a future beyond for later engravers. Thanks..............for your efforts to perfect the grace that lies within you. You add beauty to the world around you and if no one else understands your passion, I do for whatever that is worth. Carry on!
Ron S

 

[PS_Bond]

Peter, what is vermiculite and where do I get it from?

In this context, it's used a horticultural medium. You'll usually find it alongside perlite in the decent garden centres - some of the larger B&Qs stock it if you're lucky. I've heard mutterings about it being used as a growing medium for plants we aren't supposed to be growing, so some of the garden centres will give you funny looks too. Even funnier looks when you tell them what you *actually* want it for!

Googling gets this - http://www.growell.co.uk/p/1711/Vermiculite.html as one example of an online stockist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiculite has some more detail - including the issue that one mine supplying 50% of the US' consumption was contaminated with asbestos...

I use it in forging - I have a huge 50 cal ammo box full of it, and I can even anneal D2 if I stick a large lump of red-hot steel in the box with it (for heat capacity). It doesn't go off, but it ought to be kept dry; some of mine gets a bit clumpy due to borax, so those bits get binned.

And you can add it to your compost.