Gravers and how we sharpen them.....

[Marcus Hunt]

Here's an observation I've made in the past few months and I wonder how many of you have thought about this.

In the 'old days' we used to just take our gravers hold them to the whet stone then raise, twist and swipe them back and forth a few times. Job done in seconds! Experience meant that this was a totally natural process.

Whilst catching up with the 21st century a couple of years back I bought a Power Hone and dual angle fixture. Don't get me wrong, these are great but what makes them so (in my opinion) may not be what you think. The fact that they don't wear like an india or akansas stone means that they replicate angles time after time after time. When a stone used to wear the hand an eye would make the adjustments until this just wasn't possible and a new stone was required and this is wonderful.

During my 21st Century journey, I thought I'd like to catch up with you guys in the USA as I've seen some wonderful shading done by you 'colonials' and I've now come to this conclusion. The Power Hone is a wonderful tool but experimentation is required to get the best from it. The angles that are given by GRS and Lindsay should be starting points to get you engraving. If they work well for you then that's fine but don't be affraid to experiment with different and what may seem somewhat obscure geometries. In the past it was doubtful that one engraver could pick up anothers tools and cut well with them. They were custom made by the individual to the individuals requirements. I for one, have had a hell of a time with the Lindsay Point. It works on soft metals but can't hold up on hard or convex surfaces. Neither can a lot of the 'parallel heels' (this is my experience from working on guns and rifles) so I've been experimenting and have come up with a) a 100 degree parallel heel with a relief grind which works exceedingly well with a small face and b) a 'replicated' long heel similar to what I used when hand sharpening; I even managed to offset the heel slightly which is what I'd do in the old days'. This works really well for English small scroll. But I noticed a small bit of heel drag. Why? Because I now use a microscope. It wasn't visible to the naked eye and I managed to get rid of it by gently running a piece of copper over it (again, an old trick I used to use).

My tools are starting to become part of me again and are very personal. I urge you all to experiment with your power hones and sharpening fixtures; it might work and it might not but if it does you may be pleasantly surprised!

 

[coincutter]

Marcus

Power hone and fixture for rundimentary grinding - none of them are very accurate in the long run
all fine tuning of heels by hand under the scope - too long a heel makes for chatter drag but nice to have for doing long straint lines - rough shape with a 260
pull from power cut heels with 1200 a little short under scope
then 2500 or better under scope to tweak


lindsay point holds up extremely well on all all metals for me - no difference between it and any other grind other than it runs up the entire side and has relief facets
that may be why you aren't doing well with it - are you getting the relief facets long enoughto get the metal out of the way - only other thing i can think of would be the graver metal itself being crappy.
check your graver stock maybe retemper if using grs stuff carbalt no problem

try a radius heel you may fall in love with it
curesa lot of problems as to much shorter heels

later
if you get bored see if you can find me a good image of the ellsworth crest
should have started in the 1500's or there abouts
its the one with the hamer on it i think
or at least a horse theif!

 

[dclevinger]

Great post Marcus. I'd love to hear more about your offset heel. The grinds I'm using right now are working well for English but I'm always interested in trying something new. David

 

[Tim Wells]

As with all things of this nature it pays one to understand why something works a certain way rather than just knowing that it does work. This is a perfect case in point.

While we are learning to grind gravers for whatever need arises, we should also be diligent enough to learn why I may want a long heel as opposed to a short heel, what will be the result and how will it cut or track?

If you can take the time to understand what angles do what to the "drivability" of the graver it will pay huge dividends when it comes time to branch out and make an unfamiliar geometry on a graver for a different effect, strength, cut... we should all play with it especially us low timers to help us get the picture. I tried to use the gravers of Ray Cover once and couldn't do as good a job as I normally do with my own graver because it was a different geometry and I wasn't used to it. Obviously he is as the results he gets speak for themselves.

As for the Lindsay point breaking or not holding up, it would seem to me that the same holds true with using it if you're not used to it. Countless individuals have used it to engrave everything from gold to hard stainless, model 70 bolts, Ruger Red Label recievers, 1911 slides, SAA triggers; all hard stuff and holds up fine, the material the graver is made of has more of a say as to how tough it is and how well it will hold up. Then there is the factor of the technique of its use; all contributing factors.

 

[fegarex]

Marcus,
Your post about an offset heel has my interest also. I'm not sure I understand but one heel is shorter than another? I assume you have a "right hand" and "left hand" graver then?
I've seemed to try just about every graver grind and my standby is still a 90 degree with around a 15 degree heel. The face will vary on the metal. Maybe some work better but I sharpen up about 10 of these and keep going until they are dull or broke. When you get HARD metal, it seems like it really doesn't care what kind of grind or type of graver you have. Plus, I've got a whole lot of 90s and just too darn lazy to take the time to reshape them all......

 

[Glenn]

Marcus,
I too am interested in the offset heel. Like Rex, it would seem to me that you would have a right and a left offset. I am also at a stand still on a luger slide because it breaks every grind I have tried. It is a thin section and when heat treated it really heard the bell ring for max. hardness. Thanks, for you posting your observation.

 

[coincutter]

Marcus

two things
Is how does this offset work
to me an offset heel would be cutting at an agle of 90 from the graver center so in effect it would be a regular heel just cut at a different angle

or is it an offset face as rex referred to - ie left hand or right handed - traditional designed for lettering or enhanced performance on a curve with one edge leading

looking forward to a drawing or something

second thing
grinding a Lindsay graverstyle on a grs fixture
pretty much cant be done correctly because of the design of the grs fixture
lindsay graver grind takes prescision to accomplish -

thats why the new sharpener has come out with templates
one of my students bought one after having tried to resharpen gravers i had done and finding it just was not easy to do. now he sharpens better faster than i can
not fair!!!
later

 

[John B.]

Hi Glen.
On that super hard Luger piece..... two thoughts.
Take your V graver, put a 60 degree face on it and a small radius on the bottom lift area, following the long axis.
Although this is a slightly round bottom graver modified from a V you will not see much difference in the way it leaves a cut.
But it is MUCH stronger and less likely to break.
Other way to do it....... cuddle up to a good heat-treater!!!! Ha, ha.
Try the graver first, I think you will be amazed.
John B.

 

[Mike Cirelli]

I usually use a standard 90 or 120 with a conventional heel. The only time I notice any drag is when I happen to go deeper than my heel or if I would happen to put to large of a heel. I use a uniform heel more for wider cuts I find it hard to use for long straight even cutting.
Marcus I have been experimenting a little also and found if you reshape the graver i.e., to 100 degree by grinding off 40 on each side then in order to put on a uniform heel it would have to be put on at approximately 45 degrees each side. After you put on the heel you have a 90 degree angel at the heel. The same would go for any angle graver. What ever angle you lay on the heel is the cutting angle of the graver.
I'm working on some simple geometry for applying uniform heels to any angle (width) graver, and it seems to be very simple and accurate. More experimenting in the works. It's based on 90 degrees since all grinds are based on a 180 degree base line.
Mike

 

[pilkguns]

grinding a Lindsay graverstyle on a grs fixture
pretty much cant be done correctly because of the design of the grs fixture


QUOTE]

huh?!?! maybe only to someone lacking in basic geometry skills.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Good thread Marcus

It’s something I’ve had to play a lot with lately as I’ve been engraving the concave curve on a Remington action. It’s one of those subjects you actually have to experience for things to start making a lot of sense. For instance I had to increase the face angle to about 55 degrees and heel to about 35 degrees so I could get my graver into the concave area. What an act, but I got there in the end. The shading should be fun!!!

I like the Lindsay grind and use it on my 90, 115 and 120 gravers for doing the main cuts and shading. I don’t have any problems replicating the angles on the GRS dual angle fixture. However in saying that, with the Lindsay grind, the relationship between the face and heel angles are a lot more complex than your more conventional grinds but that also applies to any full length grind up the side of the graver.

I’ve also found John B’s suggestion of slightly rounding/dubbing the tip when required works really well to strengthen the tip.

I’ve often wondered about extreme graver accuracy. Does it really matter if the gravers are a degree or two out? And if they are, do we just compensate for it through our own personal technique as Marcus has pointed out.

I had a really good discussion with Ray Phillips from N-Graver at Reno and he was saying that the harder graver metals need more polishing so the tips last a lot longer. The tiny scratches on the face and heel can be enough to allow a stress fracture and breakage along the scratch line. (Similar to glass).

I use a 5000 grit diamond wheel sometimes for sharpening and that even leaves tiny scratches that create fracture lines. Polishing them with diamond paste/spray certainly seems to make them last a bit longer. Unfortunately polished lines don’t always hold ink well. So it can be a bit of a trade off.

I’d also be keen to hear other people’s ideas on this subject and the different approaches to graver sharpening

Cheers
Andrew

 

[sdcoxx]

I urge you all to experiment with your power hones and sharpening fixtures; it might work and it might not but if it does you may be pleasantly surprised!

Marcus, I appreciate the Excellent Advise. The power hone with the dual angle fixture has made the learning process a lot easier. The majority of my work is now with a 90, using a 55 face and a 171/2 heel. I have found for me, it is the adjusting of the dual angel fixture where human error is most likely to occur. It has been suggested that I could eliminate the human factor by having three fixtures, thus never having to adjust the angel. Of course, I still have to sharpen my flats.
Thanks, Stephen

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Hi guys, please understand that this wasn't meant to create any issues it was just meant to be a catalyst to experimentation; try it, you may be pleasantly surprised by what you can achieve.

I'm sorry that the Lindsay Graver Geometry does not seem to work for me. Perhaps its the way I hold my tools that exerts pressures on the point of the graver so that it doesn't hold up for me. Barry Lee Hands came to visit for a couple of days a few weeks ago and he kindly gave me a Steve Lindsay carbalt graver. It cut like a dream on silver and soft steels. But at the first sign of toughness it broke on me just as any other graver would have. It didn't stand up any better. I have used 'relieved' gravers for years now (nothing new in that) but it's the parallel heel which is relatively new to me. I find the short paralell heel works very well on soft metals and when cutting straight lines, and when polished gives wonderful bright cuts on silver. The downside is that it breaks off very easily.

When I used to sharpen the shape that was required, when looking at the heel from underneath, was a diamond and if you shortend one facet by a thousandth of an inch or so you got your offset. Depending on which side was shorter determined the offset. This offset is miniscule but it can and does make a difference to cutting. The advantage of this heel is if the tip breaks you only have to sharpen the face and your're off and engraving again in seconds.

Where we seem to get hung up is with 'heel drag'. This was never an issue to the engravers of the past who sharpened by hand and didn't use a microscope. Some of the top engravers of the past cut just as cleanly as we do today but without all the modern 'advantages' of microscopes and power hones and sharpening devices.

in conclussion, what I'm saying is that by experimenting with different geometries you may find something that works extremely well for you but not for anyone else. In the past graver sharpening was a very individual thing and not a 'one size fits all' science.

 

[KSnyder]

Marcus, I use diamond plates & fine ceramics ala "McKenzie" method. Good enough for him , good enough for me plus I like seeing a well ground tool under a loupe after I grind it by hand. Just by feel I rarely have to correct anything (angle).
cheers,
Kent

 

[coincutter]

heck even Lindsay will tell you that - or you can go read it on his site
with a grs dual its a guess and bye golly deal because of the slop in the fixture
i have been making them for years - long before you figured it out
but then i had a gooder teacher

anyway thanks for the rude remark ;-)

 

[Bob Bullard]

Marcus
What a neat thread I even let my lunch burn reading it on I found it to be very interesting and informative
I often wondered what some of the old masters would thought and done with the tools and equipment that is available now
Bob

 

[coincutter]

i can actually tell you

last summer Bill Shotts came to visit me
He was my teacher, brought Schrim from the east to the west, artist lauriate of texas, one of the top gem carvers in the us and well known for netsuke

he still carries around his gravers - typical old style wood handles - well worn and short from over 70 years of use and cutting ivory and steel, and his foredom - the only tools he ever had

when he saw my Airgraver do its thing, there was a tear in his eye. probably not so much from not having one when he was young but knowing he couldn't steal the damn thing from me and get away with it.

i think he may have wet his pants too, but that could have been just the old age thing.
he just smiled and shook his head and we went back to talking about the old days

mushy mushy where did i set my wine glass
heck Marcus would know - he's getting old!

later!

 

[Tim Adlam]

Hey Marcus,

I'm not intent on roasting your butt over some petty issue as a graver grind or tool choice.
last time I looked this was still the "Engravers Cafe"...not the Engravers Saloon.

Like many engravers, I found the illustrations in Meeks book to be overly confusing.
For me...Lynton McKenzie turned on the light bulb, and Frank Hendricks put it all in perspective.
I've added the Lindsay grind to the mix, and now I have a way to handle any situation.

In line with your observations, I truly believe that sharpening gravers is an intuitive approach
that can only be developed with time and experience.
You make the tool to fit the job...there is no universal one-size-fits-all.

The common sense approach is to analyze what's going on at the tip of your graver point...sharpen accordingly,
and adapt to the material you're cutting.

Also, with experience...you get picky about what materials you choose to cut.

Tim

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Don't get me wrong folks; there is nothing wrong with the sharpening methods out there. They work and are great to get people engraving. It doesn't matter whether it is taught by Sam, GRS or Steve Lindsay, whichever method you use if it works for you then stick with it. All I was saying is 'Dare to tread off the beaten track occassionally and you may be surprised at what you may discover.' But it's up to you.

Steve, my father changed over to a GraverMax in his mid 60's. I think it's just a case of being open to something new and it doesn't matter what your age is. Your old gaffer was probably more than happy with his tools but I can't help wondering what would've happened if he'd got hold of an Air Graver? Maybe it would open up a whole new dimension to his engraving life and enable him to carry on when perhaps he may have to give up? Nothing wrong with getting sentimental over the 'old days' mate, I'll raise my glass to you!

Tim, I couldn't agree more. Graver sharpening should be intuitive but unfortunately for many they don't have the advantage of studying under a Master for several years. You could spend a whole week attending a course given over to graver sharpening the old way at somewhere like GRS and still come away baffled and unable to set up a graver properly. This is where the 'fixtures' come into their own and enable many ordinary folks to engrave in a very competant way which would've eluded them a couple of decades back.

Unfortunately, sometimes as engravers we are presented with something made of a material we wouldn't choose to cut. I'm working on a rifle at the moment and the bolt handle is glass hard! I've annealed it 4 times and it's still smashing my carbide graver. I managed to cut part of the panel first which means I've started so I've got to finish. I wish the graver hadn't been able to make a mark on it at all than to be at this stage.......it's really frustrating!

 

[Mike Cirelli]

Marcus I ran into sort of a same situation with something that hard once. I used my high speed hand piece with some small diamond burs, put as little as I could get away with to clean up what I started. It worked for me.
Mike