Graver Geometry for fine english scroll

[banjo_art]

I have been studying Marcus Hunt's English scroll key fob casting which I purchased from the FEGA site.
Can someone comment on recommended tool geometry for this style of engraving? A 2-3 mm dia backbone scroll requires a very small tool but so far I have been unsuccessful and get excessive heel drag even with a 15 degree hint of a heel. I've also tried various included angles from 120 down to 60 degrees and nothing seems to produce the result I see when viewing the cuts on the casting.

Thanks
--Art

 

[mrthe]

Have you try insted to reduce the size of your tool/angle in reducing the lenght of your heel? in small scrolls works help,all the way you are luck because Marcus Hunt is a member of this forum and i'm sure that he can explain to you wich geometry and how sharp it is better for english scrolls

 

[Dave London]

Most likely your heel is to big, you only need a microscopic heel just a glint of light when you look at it. Less than 1/4 of a mm

 

[monk]

heel length is likely your problem. should be no longer than a hair is thick.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

One of the most important things with gravers for fine scroll is that they are ground enough on the back so that they can spring or 'pop' the bur from the cut. Graver geometry is a personal thing but I use a 115 degree heel with a 15 degree lift and 50 degree face angle. Heels should be short but not too short.

Most "heel drag" with this kind of scroll isn't. It's caused by kicking the heel of your palm out of line so that you end up cutting with the side of the face as the leading edge instead of the tip of the graver. This used to be cut with traditional long heels and they didn't get heel drag in the past so concentrate on how you are actually holding you graver.

I'm currently nearing the end of negotiations with the kind folks at GRS to get my DVD to me so I can make copies and distribute it and the book myself. This explains the fundamentals of Cutting English fine scroll. I'll keep you all posted on the progress of the project.

 

[Phil Coggan]

Listen to Marcus's words of wisdom I used to do this work with no heel just my standard engraving tool.

Phil

 

[mrthe]

Marcus thank you for expkain how you sharp it, i'm sure that it will come in your dvd and book, i hope your project go well and soon we will have another great instructional material to study.
Of course reserve a signed copy for me please!

 

[rayf24]

Marcus thanks for the tips also please put me down for your DVD AND BOOK when it comes through just send PM
Reagds
Ray

 

[bronc]

Marcus, I am sure looking forward to your DVD.

Stewart

 

[Sam]

Yes, I'll order a copy as well. Keep us posted Marcus!

 

[Red Green]

Mr. Coggan, you no longer use your standard heelless graver for English scrolls? If you don't find it too great an intrusion could you expand on the specifics of this conversion?

Bob

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Yes me too Marcus I'm interested in a copy of that DVD

arnaud

 

[bram ramon]

About graver geometry i learned sharpening by hand an still do it a lot faster to! And every engraver has his one geometry. I cant work with the graver of my teacher nor with the graver of my fellow students nor they with mine! And no it not that difficult just a bit of brains and a pair of hands.. ^^
Wat i find quit "hilarious" ore let's say sad is how a lot of engravers here believe in these magical graver geometry of "that master engraver" or that magic engraving machine.. These master engravers are self made men/women!! Do you want to get a certain level than stop being the pampered one and go searching, do it yourself.
I don't want to say you can't learn from them absolutely not, because me myself i learned a lot by just looking to Master engravers their works!
So i don't want to be rude but get the basics but do these basics perfect!! And don't start at the top because seeing al these complicated scrolls etc totally deformed makes my stomach turn! have a nice weekend!

 

[Cloudy]

well said, Bram!

 

[Fred Bowen]

Please put me on the list too, Marcus. Thanks.

 

[Sam]

Wat i find quit "hilarious" ore let's say sad is how a lot of engravers here believe in these magical graver geometry of "that master engraver" or that magic engraving machine.a nice weekend!

WHAT??? There is no magical graver geometry?!?! Oh no!! I thought that was the only thing that was keeping me from being another Winston Churchill or Firmo Fracassi!

 

[BrianPowley]

I'm with sam about magical graver geometry---------my bubble has been burst.
Can anyone recommend a good therapist?

 

[Red Green]

I am sorry to have asked such an irrelevant question Mr. Coggan, it seems such things as graver geometry are truly unimportant. I did not mean to imply your work is dependent on any one tool, or that possessing a copy would bring me the knowledge and skill needed to perform work comparable to yours. I will admit to being a bit simpleminded, it sometimes takes a while for things to sink in but I believe I'm beginning to see the light.

Bob

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Graver geometry is extremely important...........but only to the person wielding the graver. It's like the flies in a fishing vest. We only use 3 or 4 favourites and all the rest are to impress our friends.

70,80,90,105,110,115,120, heel, no heel, parallel heel, short heel, long heel, flat, square, hand sharpen, power hone sharpen, template sharpen and of course there is Marcus Hunt's favourite........the onglette!!!!

From a beginners perspective how they achieve sharpening it is irrelevant just so long as the graver is sharp and they learn how to use the graver properly. All of the variables can be learnt (or not) later on as their experience grows. Goodness knows there is enough in depth resource material out there so that anyone with half a brain can learn how to do it if they so desire. It's not rocket science.


Cheers
Andrew

 

[Crazy Horse]

" Marcus Hunt's favourite........the onglette!!!!"

Here in Philadelphia on our "jeweler's row" (Samson St.) the Onglette is referred to as a "Fish Belly."