Critique Request Forward with scrolls

[Bunic]

New photos added

OK... Maybe I'll be in more trouble because I cut spines instead of just drawing them. I used Arnaud's spirals he provided. I also drew some spines (using the "Hunt Dot Method!").

 

[pilkguns]

Do this about 100 more times till your cut spines are smooth and even and you can draw flowing scrolls yourself in the dark.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I think you've got it Mike! That third pic is spot on. Now try growing your other scrolls from the starter scroll using Scott's method. As Scott says, now you have to repeat, repeat, repeat until it becomes second nature. Well done.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Arnaud, there are scrolls and there are scrolls. Although this 'golden mean' works in creating a scroll there needs to be creative license and scrolls like these ones you've illustrated don't quite work. They need to spiral in a bit more like your last bracelet. These do not work and for the aesthetic purposes of engraving should be avoided; the smaller scrolls on the right hook in far to quickly for starters. When you come to fill the scrolls the leaves will start off massive in relation to how they'll end up at the head. It's an interesting study though and shows that computers are purely a tool.

Thank you Marcus for this info, I'm studying it right now and come back later.
I see what you mean, it was like you told about the fish hooks on my eyeglasses design.
But now I have to find out why the golden mean scroll was ever mentioned as the perfect scroll.
Sure I can draw a lot of different scrolls, but could be better than the other, that is why I thought the best one is the one in the golden mean.

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Mike, you're doing fine

arnaud

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

golden mean

Okay, now I'm getting really confused.

Some time ago there was a tread Jason started showing a Disney Movie about the golden mean. I found the tread but during to copyrights the link to YouTube no longer works.

So I was looking in the Igraver archive to find out about the perfect scroll.
Sure I understand all is allowed and not just golden mean scroll are THE scrolls.
I found several treads that handled about the Golden Mean, also one about the nautilus-shell I thought was in perfect proportions within the golden mean.
So I took the Fibonacci spiral as it is the golden mean spiral, and I was quite sure both would fit, but it does not.

So that is quite confusing, as like I remember seeing the Disney Movie, it should.

About what I learned from Marcus, a better scroll than the one in the golden mean, look more like the nautilus-shell.

So I do not want to high Jack Mike's tread, but as it started here perhaps someone can clear this out?

The first picture shows the golden mean scroll does not fit to the nautilus-shell
The second picture shows a scroll that fits better the nautilus-shell
The third is then perhaps a better sroll than the one within the golden mean range?

arnaud

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I'll say it again my friend.............pencil and paper

This stuff is interesting to know as a point of discussion and so is the weather. But you are trying to fit an artistic expression into a mathmatical formula.

Vines, flowers, leaves, blossoms and everything organic grows wild and seemingly random.........yet always looks balanced and beautiful. That is what you are trying to acheive in your designs. By using the computer in this way, you are handing over some of the thought process to the computer it has no idea what you are trying to do.

Eye, brain, arm, hand, fingers, pencil, paper are all connected together. The computer breaks that up somewhere.

Computers are great. But for initial design/scroll work I would still advise you to leave them alone.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Andrew, I know a lot about what you are telling me.
The golden mean is a mathematical way to divide panels or whatever.
But in a way, I think we all are inspired by nature, as it seems everything in there is within the right proportion, we did not invent that, it where the Greek or perhaps earlier. And sure I can "invent" a lot of curves, but I learned as we are used to see a lot of forms, only the one that looks best are the one we prefer to look at.

I think you agree with me that the nautilus-shell looks like a nice scroll, sure there are other proportions that will do too.
But why the golden mean was ever mentioned here to use as a scroll? Leonardo showed it, and a lot of others. Even Sam pointed on one of your designs as it was in perfect golden mean proportions.
You also mentioned the use of a templed to put over a design to find out.
On the other hand, I could not find any engraving design that has golden mean scrolls now.

Sure my confusing is almost gone, but finding out the shell does not fit within the golden mean.

arnaud

 

[Kevin P.]

Fibonacci numbers may be the term rather than the Golden Mean, which as I understand it is a point that lays between 2/3 and 3/4 the length of a rectangle.
This image illustrates the ratios in a fibonacci sequence.
Kevin

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

yes Kevin, I know that, it is indeed a spiral within the golden mean, but it seems it does not work to draw a scroll.
Fibonacci just shows how it is build, so does Sam here
Where it is used in engraving?, Sure not to design a scroll.
So why are whe pointing on the golden mean anyway

arnaud

 

[Kevin P.]

"So why are whe pointing on the golden mean anyway"
Arnaud I have no idea. My final test is the eyeball; if it looks good to you, it's good.
There are no absolutes in design (and that's the only absolute).
Kevin

 

[Chapi]

Remember that mathematics are the way Man has tried to define and explain the natural world, but its only as good as the data that is put into it. There are hundreds of variables to consider when trying to reconstruct nature mathematically. Take your nautilus shell, for example. It could be the water temperature or maybe not enough calcium absorption due to polutants or maybe the nautilus was just stressed or possibly the animal has just evolved so that cuts short the fractal arch that defines its curve in order to more efficiently utilize nutrients. Math without variables is a very coarse tool. I noticed this difference from scroll drawing and the golden mean spiral when reading the Meeks book. Meeks recommended drawing a circle, and then adjusting the spiral to fit within it, but when you do this, you can't make a golden mean spiral fit within a circle and have it look like an actual scroll. The guide I use is just to eyeball it and have a spiral that describes a circular path that looks like a scroll, rather than a nautilus or fern or acanthus or whatever else, then use the leaves to give Mother Nature her due.