Critique Request Forward with scrolls

Bunic

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Here are two of the scrolls I drew late this week. Ron had suggestions on the one design that I incorporated and feel it really improved the design/flow.

The engraving is from one I drew earlier this week. CC welcomed.
 

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Peter E

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They are looking much better Mike. With your determination, it seems you will have success without a doubt.
 

pilkguns

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I hate to say this again but you need to learn to walk properly before you try run. You are making mistakes in the confusion of crossovers. I suggest stick with just drawing spines to fit a given area. Make your succeding scrolls come off the spine correctly for each scroll. Only when you can do this consistently should you attempt to do crossovers of either spines or leaves. Otherwise you are just making mistakes that you should be seeing. You need to draw these enough, (or as suggested earlier, trace master's scroll examples) until you understand how scroll should properly flow. Only when you understand and can draw properly flowing scroll, can you start to add things that hide that flow, such as crossovers.

I would almost suggest you try redrawing these pictured scrolls as spines only so that you could more clearly see your mistakes. But I am not sure if you would see them then or not. You need to concentrate on the outside spine alone and making sure that they flow from one to another correctly, not matter whether they are the same size scroll or the next size down.
 
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Kevin P.

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Mike, Scott is being tough in his critique, but I think he's right.
Something that may help is just draw a single line as opposed to going over the same line repeatedly, as if sketching.
It may help you to see what Scott is pointing out. Just drawing the spine is, I guess, the same point; but just one line, no feathering.
Also larger, your scale may not be helpful.
Just a total novice's view.
Kevin
 
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Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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I would suggest you also show the backbone design only, it is where it all starts.
At the same time it will be the back of the stem like Scott is telling you

arnaud
 

pilkguns

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Something that may help is just draw a single line as opposed to going over the same line repeatedly, as if sketching.
It may help you to see what Scott is pointing out. Just drawing the spine is, I guess, the same point; but just one line, no feathering.


PILKINGTON'S FIRST LAW OF SCROLL DRAWING
Always draw the spines of your scrolls as a series of dots, never as a continous line.



I recommend drawing spines as a series of dots. You cannot make your wrist rotate smoothly enough to get a smooth concentric scroll drawn, but you can draw smooth scrolls by making the line instead as a series of dots.
Then when you cut it and the graver picks up a concentricity from the vise rotation that is slighty off what you have drawn, it is easier for your brain to pic which side of the dot to follow (inside, outside or down the middle) But I have said this before numerous times on this forum.

PS: my response earlier in the thread was typed in the small screen of my iphone, so the thought process seems a bit disjointed when I read it now.
 
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Bunic

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Peter,
Tnx!

Kevin, Arnaud, Ken... Tnx!

Scott,
Ron gave me the same direction this week - draw simpler! I thought the second one was simpler, but I guess the 'cross-overs' aren't!

I like you idea of drawing with dots. It was a little awkward at first but here is my sample. I also drew the leaves in dots - right or wrong? Tnx!
 

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jean-pierre

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Just a suggestion :
 

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Kevin P.

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Scott I now remember you saying that previously. I thought it a great idea and it's archived in my notes.
I blame brain slippage.
Kevin
 

pilkguns

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Mike,
Idon’t think dots are necessary for leaves, you can draw enough of an arc with your hand to form the leaf components. But I really need to say I don’t think you need to be drawing leaves or cutting leaves at all right now. You need to learn to fill space with properly flowing scrolls. That’s the drawing side. You need to cut properly flowing scrolls. That’s the doing side. Believe it or not doing these two things will symbiotically teach both skills. Cuttting long continuous 720 degree or longer scrolls you will see how the scroll should flow as it drawn and vice versa the drawing it will help the cutting come easier. But when you are doing this stop and start business in the drawing AND the cutting, you are learning nothing but frustration.Don’t do any leaves at all, you only need to do single outside spine lines. Draw and cut , draw and cut . Fill a square, a rectangle, an oval with these type of lines. Do it until you get the scroll flow right.


I don’t see any sense in further critiquing of your “whole” scroll attempts until you learn to design and cut properly flowing scroll, there is no sense in you trying to fill in the details (i.e. leaves or filler scrolls), because those details are confusing you by hiding the flow. I know at least two other of my fellow commenters on your work are feeling the same way about further critiquing your work when you are not showing improvement in what we have asked you to do. .

Don’t take this as discouragement, If I did’nt think you had “it” in you, I would’nt bother posting all this. I did a seminar for FEGA a few years back on scrolls throughout history and other art forms, with included section of desgining scrolls to fit a given area. This might be a good resource for you as well in this regard. I know several posters on this forum have commented on it’s usefulness to them over the years.
 

Bunic

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Jean-Pierre,
Tnx! Great concept! I saved them and will study.

Scott,
I just took out a new blank plate and will commit to 'spines only' for my next effort. I can see why so many forum users have said that drawing is the harder part of scroll engraving. Tnx!
 

Gemsetterchris

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Your not alone with this.
I`m going to have to do the same thing.

Plus for you is that you can draw very well, i can`t do much better than my 5 & 7 yr old lads :(.
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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some, help perhaps

Mike, I used one of your design in this tread to show you how to start.

On the first picture I tried to find your backbone and added a border
The second, I scaled the border as you have to much space on top, but still your backbone in a way I see it

The third picture I made the small scroll touch the upper side of the border
The fourth picture I scaled the biggest scroll, as it was not parallel enough on the upper side. In my opinion this one is the best one to start with adding the leaves.
But I think you should not do that like Scott already told you.
If you want lo learn, just draw backbones within a rectangle, show them and when they look good, you can give it a try adding leaves. I think you will learn faster if you do it that way, step by step.

The last picture is the same as the previous, it only shows yours also.

arnaud
 

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pilkguns

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Perfect Arnuad, absolutely perfect depiction of evenly filling the area to be covered with spines alone before worrying about anything else.
 
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Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Thank you Scott, and for those who see clear, not only the scrolls are almost within the golden mean, also the flow (placing the scrolls) is within 1/3 of the area to be filled.
Here are the strong lines in green, they divides the space to fill, 1/3 is almost like golden mean.

arnaud
 

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Bunic

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Arnaud,
You are too much! These drawings are perfect! It would be hard for anyone (even me!) to not see the difference!!

As I told Scott, I have a blank plate that I will start cutting tomorrow with nothing but scrolls! Tnx! for taking the time to help me!!!
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Arnaud,
You are too much! These drawings are perfect! It would be hard for anyone (even me!) to not see the difference!!

As I told Scott, I have a blank plate that I will start cutting tomorrow with nothing but scrolls! Tnx! for taking the time to help me!!!

Mike, I think you have problems with reading, I'm quite sure you don't understand what we try to tell you.
We (Scott and I) suggest you draw only the backbone before doing something else, and you are going to cut a practice plate. I don't understand that. :(

arnaud
 

Marcus Hunt

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Arnaud, there are scrolls and there are scrolls. Although this 'golden mean' works in creating a scroll there needs to be creative license and scrolls like these ones you've illustrated don't quite work. They need to spiral in a bit more like your last bracelet. These do not work and for the aesthetic purposes of engraving should be avoided; the smaller scrolls on the right hook in far to quickly for starters. When you come to fill the scrolls the leaves will start off massive in relation to how they'll end up at the head. It's an interesting study though and shows that computers are purely a tool.
 
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