Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Okay, we have to be careful because we risk hijacking Sam's thread. Roger, of course there are differences between types of English scroll. Like Chris says, it's very much akin to handwriting. Different makers had different house styles but regardless of style, good examples always follow certain rules. The main rule is balance. The inside work should not be over stretched and sparse as in the second example Purdey of the second batch of pics. The first one looks like one of my father's early small scroll guns, the second looks like one of the 1970's "bonus" guns.
The factory engravers of this period were paid a bonus the faster they could turn them out so the amount of inside work was cut down on and stretched, number of scrolls cut down on overall, and to fill the space they were made larger. Gaps were also left empty between scrolls. Look at the earlier Purdey's and you'll see where there's a gap it's been turned into a leaf and shaded - not so on the 70's gun. This was possibly the worst period of Purdey engraving ever.
The last 2 Purdey's are 'alive' as Chris says. The one next to the Westley Richards looks like it was done by the Kell workshop. Look at the size of these scrolls and then the size of the photo. If you reduce this pic down to actual size you'll start to appreciate just how small these scrolls are. When English fine gets above a certain size background needs to be cut away or it starts to look very repetitive. The Westley (next to the Purdey) is a good example of this. It is very well cut and nice quality but it isn't "alive" like the Kell Purdey's.
The first set of photos shows very commercial and cheaply cut guns (except for the Whittome). And that's what we have to remember. In those days England produced thousands of guns and a lot were very cheap. A Purdey of the time may have cost the gunmaker £4 to engrave by Kell whereas a cheap Birmingham gun might have very little engraving costing a few shillings. Also, the engravers of the time were artisans not artists. English small scroll was commercial and quick to cut. It's still saleable today if done well. I'm working on 2 Rolexes at the moment for my Japanese client who loves anything English and loves English fine scroll.
Roger, my way is not the only way to cut English scroll. It is the way I was taught by my father who worked on some of the world's finest sporting guns and rifles. It was not the cheap Birmingham way or the way of some provincial gunmaker or engraver but the top of the range so to speak. Engravers of quality such as Sam can cut an "English scroll" and even though it's not quite the way I was taught, it looks stunning. Why? Because they understand the basics of balance and harmony.
Sam's scrolls have more shading than a commercial engraver would use. That's not to say it's wrong but in the past would have taken the engraver too long for the money he would earn. However, there is a mistake in Sam's example where one of the scrolls coming from the tale of the starter scroll looks wrong and it leaves a very awkward gap which has been filled with outside work. This in turn leaves a white gap which (unfortunately) automatically draws my eye to it. Barring the crappy 70's Purdey, none of the example photographs do this.
There are no awkward gaps left even with the cheapest and poorest examples here and this is because the engravers would have been apprenticed in this English style and the master would have told them not to leave these gaps and showed them how to correctly use the outside work to balance the design.
The main fault of so called "English fine scroll" nowadays is that techniques designed for wee scrolls are being used on scrolls that are far too big to properly support it. This means it's hard to get the subtle variations within the inside work which keeps things interesting. This isn't "wrong" as such, after all you can do whatever you want and who am I to tell you "No, do it my way!" but it is "wrong" if you want to produce top quality English fine/small scroll in the English manner. Once you learn the basics though, the world becomes your oyster and then like engravers such as Sam (Chris, Lee, Winston and many others) you can then inject your own personality into "English scroll" (you just have to work on your design a bit more though Sam
)
The factory engravers of this period were paid a bonus the faster they could turn them out so the amount of inside work was cut down on and stretched, number of scrolls cut down on overall, and to fill the space they were made larger. Gaps were also left empty between scrolls. Look at the earlier Purdey's and you'll see where there's a gap it's been turned into a leaf and shaded - not so on the 70's gun. This was possibly the worst period of Purdey engraving ever.
The last 2 Purdey's are 'alive' as Chris says. The one next to the Westley Richards looks like it was done by the Kell workshop. Look at the size of these scrolls and then the size of the photo. If you reduce this pic down to actual size you'll start to appreciate just how small these scrolls are. When English fine gets above a certain size background needs to be cut away or it starts to look very repetitive. The Westley (next to the Purdey) is a good example of this. It is very well cut and nice quality but it isn't "alive" like the Kell Purdey's.
The first set of photos shows very commercial and cheaply cut guns (except for the Whittome). And that's what we have to remember. In those days England produced thousands of guns and a lot were very cheap. A Purdey of the time may have cost the gunmaker £4 to engrave by Kell whereas a cheap Birmingham gun might have very little engraving costing a few shillings. Also, the engravers of the time were artisans not artists. English small scroll was commercial and quick to cut. It's still saleable today if done well. I'm working on 2 Rolexes at the moment for my Japanese client who loves anything English and loves English fine scroll.
Roger, my way is not the only way to cut English scroll. It is the way I was taught by my father who worked on some of the world's finest sporting guns and rifles. It was not the cheap Birmingham way or the way of some provincial gunmaker or engraver but the top of the range so to speak. Engravers of quality such as Sam can cut an "English scroll" and even though it's not quite the way I was taught, it looks stunning. Why? Because they understand the basics of balance and harmony.
Sam's scrolls have more shading than a commercial engraver would use. That's not to say it's wrong but in the past would have taken the engraver too long for the money he would earn. However, there is a mistake in Sam's example where one of the scrolls coming from the tale of the starter scroll looks wrong and it leaves a very awkward gap which has been filled with outside work. This in turn leaves a white gap which (unfortunately) automatically draws my eye to it. Barring the crappy 70's Purdey, none of the example photographs do this.
There are no awkward gaps left even with the cheapest and poorest examples here and this is because the engravers would have been apprenticed in this English style and the master would have told them not to leave these gaps and showed them how to correctly use the outside work to balance the design.
The main fault of so called "English fine scroll" nowadays is that techniques designed for wee scrolls are being used on scrolls that are far too big to properly support it. This means it's hard to get the subtle variations within the inside work which keeps things interesting. This isn't "wrong" as such, after all you can do whatever you want and who am I to tell you "No, do it my way!" but it is "wrong" if you want to produce top quality English fine/small scroll in the English manner. Once you learn the basics though, the world becomes your oyster and then like engravers such as Sam (Chris, Lee, Winston and many others) you can then inject your own personality into "English scroll" (you just have to work on your design a bit more though Sam
)
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There's much to be learned about English scroll and this has been very informative. I agree my attempt has some funky spots that stick out to my eye as well. Of course Churchill's is to die for! I hope others might cut some examples as well and then post them. Bram has done some super nice examples...maybe others will too?
:bow: One detail I especially like are the regulated screws with the design continued over them.
